Hagler vs. Leonard!!

[Marcov]

born 1958 started collecting fight films in 79, today i have a collection of over 20,000+

only Mike Colbert was ranked in 79 (fringe) the others was not Top 10 ranked fighters... Sugar Rar Seales was virtually blind when Hagler beat him the final time, by all accounts Kevin Finnigan gave Hagler `fits`with Hagler winning by using dirty tactics, Briscoe was years past his best,... interesting how you leave out Thomas, Patterson & Warren 3 Tomato-cans who between them had more than 50 defeats

Fair enough. Your qualifications are simular to mine.
I will find the story from Ring magazine about Hagler while he was waiting for his shot and also should be able to supply rankings from that time.

[GJC]

This is a fight where possibly 3 Rds were swing rds and they could have gone either way.

I think thats the nub of it really and I think that SRL was more eye catching and Hagler more effective. Plus I think that Leonard gota lot of kudos for coming out of retirement after a long lay off and fighting above his weight etc, and frankly Hagler did himself few favours by fighting a ****** fight.
Think those factors swung it for Leonard more than what actually happened. Close fight few swing rounds and Leonard maybe got the benefit of the doubt on those swing rounds which maybe the defending champion would normally get.

[Marcov]

I think thats the nub of it really and I think that SRL was more eye catching and Hagler more effective. Plus I think that Leonard gota lot of kudos for coming out of retirement after a long lay off and fighting above his weight etc, and frankly Hagler did himself few favours by fighting a ****** fight.
Think those factors swung it for Leonard more than what actually happened. Close fight few swing rounds and Leonard maybe got the benefit of the doubt on those swing rounds which maybe the defending champion would normally get.

Good post and I have to agree all the way

[P.WILL]

1. Leonard
2. Leonard
3. Leonard
4. Leonard
5. Hagler
6. Leonard
7. Leonard
8. Hagler
9. Hagler
10. Hagler
11. Leonard
12. Leonard

Leonard- 116
Hagler- 112

[Bigdaddy_Vh]

Marvin Hagler is one of the most over-rated fighters of all times,

not a knock at you personally because i dont know you but that is by far the dumbest thing i have ever heard. yes, you are entitled to your opinion but there is no basis for this comment. its completely absurd. Hagler was a ****ing monster. Overrated? tell that to mugabi and hearns who could have knocked out any other fighter within 2 or 3 weight classes. hagler ate their best and kept coming forward. hagler was a ****ing warrior.

Leonard won the fight for several reasons:
he would only fight hagler if it was 12 rounds. he knew if it went 15 he was finished(smart negotiating move on leonards part)
he would only fight hagler in the bigger ring. he had to have the extra room to dance.(again, another smart negotiating move on leonards part). Hagler knew he had to give in to these concessions or else there would be no fight. He did what real fighters are supposed to do. Make the important fights happen.

Leonard only fought for 15 seconds each round at the end, stealing the rounds in the eyes of the judges.
Leonard was a smart man, he knew he could win the fight if he fought this way and he did exactly what he had to do. Not exactly a display of bravado but Leonard was a different fighter than Hagler. He was a prizefighter, not a warrior, and thats ok.

btw, i always had the fight 114-114 personally. and yes i am completely biased towards Hagler. didnt hate leonard but LOVED hagler. just telling it how i see it.

[donkim]

just telling it how i see it.

See what? Obviously you've never seen the fight,because nobody who has seen the fight would dare come out with such nonsense as "Leonard only fought for 15 seconds each round at the end"


I can easily post a clip which would completely destroy such a claim.


Don't attempt to discredit the washed up,inactive,blown up welterweight Ray Leonard's performance against the supposed greatest middleweight of all time.It's not Leonard's fault that Hagler wasn't as good as he was promoted.

Hagler even being made to go the distance is a complete embarrassment to his legacy.


sonnyboyx2 holds the opinion that Marvis is overrated,and considering he was beaten by a washed up,inactive blown up welterweight,he has a strong argument to fall back on.


Warrior's don't spend their entire career's calling out smaller men either.

[Danny TKO]

I rate both guys as great fighters. Although I lost respect for Leonard later when I realised how much he manipulated both fights and people.

Ray got inside Haglers head to the extent that he didn't fight the right fight. He started the fight and stayed too long in the orthodox stance. (In training Ray had struggled with the southpaw style being caught often with the straight left).

When I watched the fight live with commentary I got carried away and scored Leonard by 4 rounds. It's only after watching it again without the commentary that I was able to score it more accurately. I scored it to Ray by two rounds but there were a number of rounds that I could understand being given either way. Do you score the round to Ray for landing more shots or to Marvin for landing the fewer but more hurtful ones ? Scoring a fight is subjective and the judges that night went for flash over pressure.

I don't hold with the idea that a challenger has to rip the title from a champion. Ray would have been ****** to come back after the lay off and stand toe to toe with Marvin. His game plan was to frustrate Hagler with movement and speed and it worked. Hagler had no answer to it and at times looked to me like he was trying to show that he could outbox Ray instead of applying pressure early. By doing this he was 4 or 5 rounds behind and desperate before half way.

I rate Hagler as one of the best middle weights ever but he got it all wrong that night with Leonard.

[sonnyboyx2]

I rate both guys as great fighters. Although I lost respect for Leonard later when I realised how much he manipulated both fights and people.

Ray got inside Haglers head to the extent that he didn't fight the right fight. He started the fight and stayed too long in the orthodox stance. (In training Ray had struggled with the southpaw style being caught often with the straight left).

When I watched the fight live with commentary I got carried away and scored Leonard by 4 rounds. It's only after watching it again without the commentary that I was able to score it more accurately. I scored it to Ray by two rounds but there were a number of rounds that I could understand being given either way. Do you score the round to Ray for landing more shots or to Marvin for landing the fewer but more hurtful ones ? Scoring a fight is subjective and the judges that night went for flash over pressure.

I don't hold with the idea that a challenger has to rip the title from a champion. Ray would have been ****** to come back after the lay off and stand toe to toe with Marvin. His game plan was to frustrate Hagler with movement and speed and it worked. Hagler had no answer to it and at times looked to me like he was trying to show that he could outbox Ray instead of applying pressure early. By doing this he was 4 or 5 rounds behind and desperate before half way.

I rate Hagler as one of the best middle weights ever but he got it all wrong that night with Leonard.

you are correct... i could also say the same for many posts on this topic yet you outlined it to a tee... Hagler thought all he had to do was `turn-up and KO Ray Leonard` He vastly underestimated Sugar Ray to the extent that it was embarrassing for him and his supporters (myself included) as Leonard beat him at every aspect of the sport of Boxing, infact it was an easy fight for Leonard considering he was coming back off a 3yrs lay-off... IMO Leonard exposed Hagler as "NOT the wrecking-machine" He tried to portray to his fans.. Haglers greatest victory was his win over Hearns yet it is a tarnished victory due to the fact that Thomas Hearns broke his famous right-hand in the opening round, Haglers victory over Mugabi was again badly tarnished when Duane Thomas, Terry Norris & Gerald McClellan all destroyed Mugabi in devastating fashion ... Could a prime Marvin Hagler beat a Prime Ray Leonard -- Definately Not!

[nachorjj]

8 rounds to 4 leonard

[Poet682006]

Haglers greatest victory was his win over Hearns yet it is a tarnished victory due to the fact that Thomas Hearns broke his famous right-hand in the opening round

Sounds like a nuthuggers excuse to me. The only thing "broken" in that fight was Hearns' chin. BTW, if I hear Hearns' right hand described as "famous" one more time I think I'm gonna puke What are you? Princemanspoophead's parrott now?

Poet