If Cus Damato Lived And Continued To Train Tyson

[mickey malone]

I never said Tyson was any better than Louis or Johnson. I just said he would kill them if he fought them. You basically answered he would need a gun. I think they would be the one who would.

I agree that those three fighters didn't have the same tools and the same workouts. That's why we can't really compare them that way.
When i do P4P lists, i compare guys on their resume and what they accomplished in their eras. Vitali would kill Louis or Patterson, but they're much greater than him. Mayweather would kill Joe Gans, but Gans did more in his era as a ligtweight,etc..

PS: I saw prime Tyson in videos but not live. Too young for that.

You should watch more of Louis.. His finest attribute was punching through the middle, a technique Tyson was always susceptable to..

[StarshipTrooper]

I obviously rate him a bit higher than you do, but seriously, have you ever seen a guy over 200 with so much combination of speed and power?.. I haven't..

I'm not as impressed by power as casual fans are. In fact I consider it the LEAST important of the major attributes that make up a fighter. I've always been far more impressed by Tyson's chin than his power.

He'd have been too much for Mercer, Tua, Ibeabuchi or the Lennox Lewis who fought Frank Bruno..

The thing is I don't see those matchups as happening until post-1995 at which point I think would have slipped to past-prime and all of the above would have good chances especially Ibeabuchi. For the record, in a prime vs. prime trilogy against Lennox I would favor Tyson to take 2 out of 3. This "Tyson waxes Lewis in a round" stuff is just dumb.

Holyfield, I just feel, kind of always had his number and would have been like Hearns's Barkley or Ali's Norton.. But with your predictions being, a victory over Foreman, 2/3 over Bowe and 1/3 Holyfield, concluded with his other achievements, would NOT be enough to elevate him into the top 5?? C'mon Poet, You know it makes sense!

Considering I base my ATG lists on ability (ie. how good they were) as opposed to just resume (which I see as a different discussion), who would I drop out of my top-5 to make room for Tyson? Ali? Louis? Johnson? Dempsey? Holmes? Who else rated above him would he leapfrog? Liston? Holyfield? Foreman? Marciano? And is he really that much better than Frazier and Wills to justify ranking him THAT far above them? Questions that need consideration!

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

Prime Tyson's training routine doesn't involve any futuristic machines or methods compared to the 1940's. His diet was pretty simple, also.

Really, he would've been the same fighter had he been in the 1940's.

No. Food was far less regualted for nutrional content then as compared to now. Also, water is far cleaner as is the air; sanitation is far better today, medical care isn't remotely comparible. All of these things contribute to larger and healthier bodies. Go to any 3rd world country that lack such modern amenities and you'll find the size of the people living there has changed very little over the past 1,000 years.....and the the 1,000 years prior to that. It's only in countries with modern nutrition, sanitation, and medical care that people have grown progressively larger especially over the past 60 years.

Poet

[masta]

No. Food was far less regualted for nutrional content then as compared to now. Also, water is far cleaner as is the air; sanitation is far better today, medical care isn't remotely comparible. All of these things contribute to larger and healthier bodies. Go to any 3rd world country that lack such modern amenities and you'll find the size of the people living there has changed very little over the past 1,000 years.....and the the 1,000 years prior to that. It's only in countries with modern nutrition, sanitation, and medical care that people have grown progressively larger especially over the past 60 years.

Poet

You're going to the extreme. I hope you'll come back later and have a laugh.

Truth is that there wouldn't be much of a difference if Tyson fought Louis in Louis' era. A prime Tyson would most likely overwhelm a prime Louis and possibly knock him out.

[StarshipTrooper]

You're going to the extreme. I hope you'll come back later and have a laugh.

Truth is that there wouldn't be much of a difference if Tyson fought Louis in Louis' era. A prime Tyson would most likely overwhelm a prime Louis and possibly knock him out.

Come back whenever. Quite frankly you don't know what the **** you're talking about. Go back to school Junior and pay attention this time.

Poet

[masta]

Come back whenever. Quite frankly you don't know what the **** you're talking about. Go back to school Junior and pay attention this time.

Poet

Calling names and acting like an idiot on a forum won't make you look cool.

And I do know what I'm talking about since I've studied both fighters and asked myself this question many times before. They're also in my top 3 favorite heavyweights so I don't play it out on favoritism.

I will say that Louis had better accuracy with his punches than Tyson but a prime Tyson had the chin to survive big punches. I wish I could say the same about Louis but I can't, seeing as he got KTFO by Schmeling and dropped many times, including by Braddock and Galento.

If you're looking for a knockout, you need power. Tyson had more power than Louis.

[mickey malone]

I'm not as impressed by power as casual fans are. In fact I consider it the LEAST important of the major attributes that make up a fighter. I've always been far more impressed by Tyson's chin than his power.




The thing is I don't see those matchups as happening until post-1995 at which point I think would have slipped to past-prime and all of the above would have good chances especially Ibeabuchi. For the record, in a prime vs. prime trilogy against Lennox I would favor Tyson to take 2 out of 3. This "Tyson waxes Lewis in a round" stuff is just dumb.




Considering I base my ATG lists on ability (ie. how good they were) as opposed to just resume (which I see as a different discussion), who would I drop out of my top-5 to make room for Tyson? Ali? Louis? Johnson? Dempsey? Holmes? Who else rated above him would he leapfrog? Liston? Holyfield? Foreman? Marciano? And is he really that much better than Frazier and Wills to justify ranking him THAT far above them? Questions that need consideration!

Poet

I'd say Mike was a bit better than Dempsey and Johnson, so I guess that's where he could fit in.. Obviously, this is just a my opinion, & you're right, exceptional skills do beat exceptional power, but Tyson wasn't an unexceptional boxer, so I'd say he beats both of them, Dempsey by way of late stoppage & Johnson by way of UD.. Dempsey would trade and Johnson would clinch and spoil, no match for a rampaging Tyson.. With regard to the others, a prime Foreman may have stopped him, with Liston and Marciano giving good accounts of themselves, but going the same way as Dempsey..
With regard to post 95 matchups, I was hypathetically referring to, if he'd fought them on the way up.. All would probably beat him post 95..

[StarshipTrooper]

Calling names and acting like an idiot on a forum won't make you look cool.

Quite frankly I couldn't give a **** whether I look "cool" or not. When someone talks out of their ass I call them on it.

And I do know what I'm talking about since I've studied both fighters and asked myself this question many times before. They're also in my top 3 favorite heavyweights so I don't play it out on favoritism.

I've probably been doing the same since before you were born.

I will say that Louis had better accuracy with his punches than Tyson but a prime Tyson had the chin to survive big punches. I wish I could say the same about Louis but I can't, seeing as he got KTFO by Schmeling and dropped many times, including by Braddock and Galento.

Considering Tyson was KTFO by Buster Douglas. More to the point both Schmeling and Galento were very good punchers and in the case of Schmeling it took 8 rounds and many clean right hands FROM a very good puncher to stop Louis. Tyson was dropped by a bodyshot from Evander Holyfield: A decent but not overpowering puncher.

If you're looking for a knockout, you need power. Tyson had more power than Louis.

There's a LOT more to boxing than knockouts. Even so, Tyson is NOT the hardest puncher in division history: It is generally agreed that both Shavers and Foreman were harder punchers than Mike and I've seen many boxing historian argue that Liston, Marciano, AND Louis were all harder puchers than Tyson. The fact is both Tyson AND Louis had one-punch KO power so that argument is a wash.

Poet

[masta]

I've probably been doing the same since before you were born.

You know you're losing in a debate when..

Considering Tyson was KTFO by Buster Douglas. More to the point both Schmeling and Galento were very good punchers and in the case of Schmeling it took 8 rounds and many clean right hands FROM a very good puncher to stop Louis. Tyson was dropped by a bodyshot from Evander Holyfield: A decent but not overpowering puncher.

If you think the Tyson that fought Douglas was in his prime, you know nothing about boxing.

If you think the Tyson that fought Holyfield was in his prime, you know nothing about boxing.

There's a LOT more to boxing than knockouts. Even so, Tyson is NOT the hardest puncher in division history: It is generally agreed that both Shavers and Foreman were harder punchers than Mike and I've seen many boxing historian argue that Liston, Marciano, AND Louis were all harder puchers than Tyson. The fact is both Tyson AND Louis had one-punch KO power so that argument is a wash.

I don't know why you're bringing up Foreman and Shavers since I wasn't talking about whose the hardest punchers in heavyweight history. I just pointed out that Tyson had more power than Louis. And power is almost everything in a knockout punch.

Since a prime (meaning when a person is at their best, just incase you didn't know) Tyson had the chin to take Louis' shots, he would eventually knock out Louis.

[StarshipTrooper]

I'd say Mike was a bit better than Dempsey and Johnson, so I guess that's where he could fit in.. Obviously, this is just a my opinion, & you're right, exceptional skills do beat exceptional power, but Tyson wasn't an unexceptional boxer, so I'd say he beats both of them, Dempsey by way of late stoppage & Johnson by way of UD.. Dempsey would trade and Johnson would clinch and spoil, no match for a rampaging Tyson.. With regard to the others, a prime Foreman may have stopped him, with Liston and Marciano giving good accounts of themselves, but going the same way as Dempsey..
With regard to post 95 matchups, I was hypathetically referring to, if he'd fought them on the way up.. All would probably beat him post 95..

I wouldn't say he was unexemptional but I wouldn't put him on the same level skillwise as say an Ali, Louis, Holmes, or even Liston for that matter. His skills routinely get exagerrated beyond what the realistically were. He had his weaknesses even in his short prime and I commented on them AT THE TIME. Too many people get stars in there watching his quick KOs over tomato cans. For me, a KO makes no more impression on me than a solid decision. It's a win, no more no less.

To my mind Johnson would easily outpoint Tyson while both Foreman and Liston would use him like a basketball ala Foreman Vs. Frazier I (bad, bad style matchup). Dempsey and Marciano (and Frazier) are even money matchups with Mike as there are so many similarities between them as to nullify any advanatages one might have over the other.

Poet