By Your Criteria Is Holyfield An ATG Heavyweight?

[BKM-]

Ah the classic "two wrongs make a right" or translated to Chinese boxing: "Two Wongs make a fight." Boxing is complicated. Certain so called "dirty" moves are tolerated. Clinching, euphemistically called "tying a man up" fighting inside with traps, arm holds, etc. To an extent fighters are allowed to lead with the head as well. And when we try to imagine steroid use, seldom do people imagine that which they might not be aware of.

Fighting hard often has elements of all things considered dirty, done as a means to facilitate progress aggressively. These things are tolerated because boxing has a hidden and apparent aspect. The hidden aspect is that it is a fight. One thing to be aware of here is how bad it becomes when a combat sport is over regulated. Judo has become a joke... All the good stuff has been banished from the sport. Fencing as an art was destroyed in order for people to vie for points along a straight path. occasinally in MMA a fighter does a kick properly and breaks a knee... and the effects are devistating.

I do think we have to watch head butts. They are dangerous and there is no mistaking them for trying to position oneself using the head to lead. To equivocate what Tyson does with head butting I do not agree with. However, I also do not believe in calling Holly a serial head butter.

I wish somebody made a compilation of Tyson's dirty moves. Posters here used to pick them out in detail in his fights. What he did was subtle but they picked out his swift headbutts(Tyson would get away with it because of his height, it looked like a small man trying to untie the bigger man. He would sort of 'jump away' in the clinch while his head bashed their foreheads)

His elbows too, being a smaller man with shorter arms and being known for throwing short hooks, he would shorten the punch so much it would graze with the forearms bone and the tup of the elbow would make contact at the end of the punch. Tyson loved the elbows.

Low blows too. He made it look more natural because he was always the shorter man.

It was not as blatant as his arm-locks and ear biting.

When Tyson talked out about it he would giggle with glee. Untill someone did it to him, of course.

[billeau2]

I wish somebody made a compilation of Tyson's dirty moves. Posters here used to pick them out in detail in his fights. What he did was subtle but they picked out his swift headbutts(Tyson would get away with it because of his height, it looked like a small man trying to untie the bigger man. He would sort of 'jump away' in the clinch while his head bashed their foreheads)

His elbows too, being a smaller man with shorter arms and being known for throwing short hooks, he would shorten the punch so much it would graze with the forearms bone and the tup of the elbow would make contact at the end of the punch. Tyson loved the elbows.

Low blows too. He made it look more natural because he was always the shorter man.

It was not as blatant as his arm-locks and ear biting.

When Tyson talked out about it he would giggle with glee. Untill someone did it to him, of course.

Yup... All of those are considered part of the sport. If a fighter is good enough to get away with it, integrate it, then it must be defended against. It is tolerated to a proverbial point. The ear biting was pure rage lol. Holy also was doing similar things with his head when pushing Mike backwards. All in good fun. I mean I agree that Tyson becoming enraged was not a case of an innocent man protesting.

[QueensburyRules]

Well you see, when you put it in perspective Tyson got beaten in his own dirty game and it was in fact he who was also a very dirty fighter his whole career(took pride in learning all the dirty tricks from past greats when he had access to all the boxing footage in Cus' house).

Tyson headbutted and elbowed berbick, tried to break Botha and Mcbride's arms, punched Ruddock, Smith, Norris long after the bell rung. He also loved low blows. It is a mystery how Tyson got away with it and isn't labeled a dirty fighter which he obviously was.

And none of those men except maybe Ruddock did anything dirty to Tyson, they simply frustrated the big bully who couldn't take it when they went down after the first shots they felt.

He can't take it when people stand up to him. You saw it in every area of his life, with his ***ual assaults of women, the beatings he gave his wife, managers, etc.

In his era you had several men who did not have that trait and that's Tyson's kryptonite. Evander, Tokyo Douglas, Lewis, Bowe, Tua, Big George Foreman. Tyson either ducked them or got knocked out by every single one of them.

Also Tyson was one of the most rampant PED users I've ever seen in sports so really I can't fault Evander for anything. Evan playing field.

- - Hot Fetid Hogwash 4 U is it yet again.

Tyson was a clean fighter never needing to cheat because he was so dominantly powerful. It weren't until he lost his HOF team and King got his hooks into him that he became a dirty fighter, hence your names where U obliterate the time line of events.

[BKM-]

I thought we were friends now Queen?

[Mr Mitts]

I wish somebody made a compilation of Tyson's dirty moves. Posters here used to pick them out in detail in his fights. What he did was subtle but they picked out his swift headbutts(Tyson would get away with it because of his height, it looked like a small man trying to untie the bigger man. He would sort of 'jump away' in the clinch while his head bashed their foreheads)

His elbows too, being a smaller man with shorter arms and being known for throwing short hooks, he would shorten the punch so much it would graze with the forearms bone and the tup of the elbow would make contact at the end of the punch. Tyson loved the elbows.

Low blows too. He made it look more natural because he was always the shorter man.

It was not as blatant as his arm-locks and ear biting.

When Tyson talked out about it he would giggle with glee. Untill someone did it to him, of course.

I noticed the same thing about Tyson many times. You got it perfect about his elbow. He tried to break Savarez's arm in an old move taught to me by a friend, which was taught to him by an old boxer from the 1930's who trained with the Gibbons brothers quite a while in Minnesota. That elbow lock really does hurt like hell, as you probably know, and quite disables you while it is happening, if not forever. All of that made me wonder, even back then, if he was really as good as I thought he was.

On the positive side, he had some of the greatest combinations I have ever seen. I may not have figured out yet that he did not punch as hard as a man like Foreman. But he put them together so well that no one cared or even thought of it. This would have been about 1986-1988. I thought he might become the best heavyweight ever at that point. If he had turned right instead of left, who knows?

[Mr Mitts]

We disagree But the real disagreement is that last sentence... We are the History section... We question shiat. We question whether Ray Robinson the wanna be dancer could be called great against Homicidal Hank Armstrong... We question whether Dempsey put a small nuclear power plant in his right glove... Dempsey was smart right? Holyfield can be questioned... Lewis can be called on the carpet. Holyfield is not above reproach anymore than any other fighter.

I have no trouble at all believing Robinson would have torn Armstrong to pieces in a short while. Then he would have slowed down and coasted to an easy decision on old Hank, whom he adored as an amateur coming up the slop himself and even before. Hank was 9 years older than Ray and employed a style that wears down a slugger whereas a good boxer minimizes the damage and should last longer.