Cerdan vs LaMotta - Who would have won the rematch?

[Willow The Wisp]

Marcel Cerdan, 33. 111-4-0 (65)
Vs
Giacobbe "Jake" LaMotta, 27. 72-13-3 (25)


Who have you got in the rematch?

Two of the great middleweights of the post war era. They had met for Cerdan's world title on June 16, 1949 at Briggs Stadium in Detroit.
In that fight, Cedan dislocated his shoulder during a tumble to the canvas in the opening round, but bravely fought on until the 10th round, when his corner stopped the fight due to his injury, causing the loss of his title to LaMotta.

A rematch was signed almost immediately and the fighters went into training.
While on his way to training camp, the Frenchman boarded an Air France flight on October 28, 1949, to visit his lover, the famous singer Edith Piaf in New York, where she was performing. The Lockheed L-749 Constellation crashed into Monte Redondo (São Miguel Island, Azores), killing all 11 crew members and 37 passengers on board, including France's most revered sportsman, leaving the world to mourn, and forever speculate who would have won the rematch.

For those who know the pair, where they'd been and where they were headed before the crash; who do you think would have prevailed in the return bout that was never to be?

[Ivich]

Marcel Cerdan, 33. 111-4-0 (65)
Vs
Giacobbe "Jake" LaMotta, 27. 72-13-3 (25)


Who have you got in the rematch?

Two of the great middleweights of the post war era. They had met for Cerdan's world title on June 16, 1949 at Briggs Stadium in Detroit.
In that fight, Cedan dislocated his shoulder during a tumble to the canvas in the opening round, but bravely fought on until the 10th round, when his corner stopped the fight due to his injury, causing the loss of his title to LaMotta.

A rematch was signed almost immediately and the fighters went into training.
While on his way to training camp, the Frenchman boarded an Air France flight on October 28, 1949, to visit his lover, the famous singer Edith Piaf in New York, where she was performing. The Lockheed L-749 Constellation crashed into Monte Redondo (São Miguel Island, Azores), killing all 11 crew members and 37 passengers on board, including France's most revered sportsman, leaving the world to mourn, and forever speculate who would have won the rematch.

For those who know the pair, where they'd been and where they were headed before the crash; who do you think would have prevailed in the return bout that was never to be?

Lamotta ,he was coming Cerdan was going.

[Willow The Wisp]

Very tough call, precisely because of what you point out, Ivich. But Doc has something here. Cerdan was far more consistent, and the first fight, well....proved nothing.

[Ivich]

Very tough call, precisely because of what you point out, Ivich. But Doc has something here. Cerdan was far more consistent, and the first fight, well....proved nothing.

Cerdan was past prime and his record isn't that sterling,I dont think their resumes are comparable .

Cerdan caught a washed up Zale at the right time.

Prime for prime I'd take Jake and definitely in their proposed rematch.

[DooGee#33]

I'm fairly certain Jake LaMotta would have retained his Middleweight Championship.

[Willow The Wisp]

Cerdan was past prime and his record isn't that sterling,I dont think their resumes are comparable .

Cerdan caught a washed up Zale at the right time.

Prime for prime I'd take Jake and definitely in their proposed rematch.

That's a respectable thought from a respected contributor, albeit one probably hastily composed. I'm a big fan of LaMotta, and I knew him. But....my opinion, well steeped by cohorting in this industry, is this:

As good as Jake was, and as much as he was further immortalized through the work of Martin Scorsese and Robert De Niro; his abilities in the ring were a full level below those of Marcel Cerdan. The records of the two speak in support of this contention.

Mr. Lamotta logged 19 (17 legit) setbacks across his career; among them a pair to AAU champ Jimmy Reeves where Reeves improved on his efforts from the first match to the 2nd, a nod to veteran Nate Bolden who the press stated had "a clear edge throughout", Laurent Dauthuille, Irish Bob Murphy, Cecil Hudson, and he never maintained a streak beyond 15 strait.
Though portrayed as being ferocious in Scorsese's great film, Jake was not a big puncher at all, and relied on busy volume and a deep reserve of toughness instead. It needn't be said, the fact that LaMotta also beat a host of very good fighters too, like 40-0 Ray Robinson (going 1-5 in their series), Fritzie Zivic (3-1), Silent Hairston, Robert Villemain (1-1), Jose Basora (2-1-1), Joey DeJohn, Tommy Yarosz, Tommy Bell (x3), Tony Janiro, George Costner, Bert Lytell, Walter "Pipeye" Woods and Bob Satterfield, to name a few.

But Cerdan, who fought most often in Europe where boxing was booming in the years after the war, had his own impressive collection of scalps that included the famous Valencian Primo Rubio, Czech standout Eduard Hrabak, Cleto Locatelli, Gustave Humery, Amedeo "Gorilla" Deyana, Alfred Katter, Congolese Al Baker, Felix Wouters, Paris rivals Roland Coureau and Roger Cadot, Algerian Omar Kouidri, Gaspard Deridder, "The Rock of New Mexico" Larry Cisneros, Black Murderers' Row great Holman Williams, Robert Charron, great contender Georgie Abrams, Scottish middleweight Champion Bert Gilroy, Jean Walczak, Harold Green, **** Turpin, Belguim hero Cyrille Delannoit, Texas contender LaVern Roach, legenday world champion Tony Zale, and many others.


In 1949, having won the title and losing out on his chance to prove that he could beat Cerdan for real, LaMotta agreed to an over the limit non-title match in December with another Frenchman, Robert Villemain, and he was easily beaten:

https://www.newspapers.com/image/603...ciOiJIUzI1NiIs InR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJmcmVlLXZpZXctaWQiOjYwMzE2MTM0L CJpYXQiOjE3MTUzNTM4NTQsImV4cCI6MTcxNTQ0MDI1NH0.reD pOoNTysxtIgmvULG32TfqdYlPiBSuy4uXXcqf4Qk


Earler in the year, in preparation for his challenge to the no. 1 Frenchman, LaMotta and Villemain, the decided no. 2, had their first encounter, and it went like this:

https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Ja...n_(1st_meeting)

"Jake LaMotta won an unpopular split 12 round decision over Robert Villemain of France after a great fight Friday night before 11,491 fans at MSG. The fans booed the decision for more than 5 minutes. They hooted LaMotta as Jake climbed down from the ring and they gave the Frenchman a great ovation. There were no knockdowns during the bout but LaMotta appeared to be staggered in at least three rounds. Villemain won the fans with his persistent short-hooking attack to the head that caused far more damage than LaMotta's wide swings. And it was the Frenchman that did most of the forcing.

On March 28, 1949, three days after the bout, NYSAC chairman Eddie Eagan suspended indefinitely referee Harry Ebbetts and judge Harold Barnes because of their scoring in the bout, with them not to receive assignments for an indefinite period. Eagan stated, "In view of the international importance of the bout and the fact that their cards were contrary to the viewpoint of practically all those who witnessed the contest, especially the members of the commission, it was felt that disciplinary action was required."

It is noteworthy that just prior the this fight, LaMotta was soundly beaten by yet another French contender, Laurent Dauthuille, "The Tarzan of Buzenval" in Montreal.

My feeling is that the brilliant Cerdan would have regained his title without any trouble, and the legend of LaMotta would have been substantially diminished.

Through the tragedy of one came opportunity for another.
But LaMotta was no Marcel Cerdan.

[Ivich]

That's a respectable thought from a respected contributor, albeit one probably hastily composed. I'm a big fan of LaMotta, and I knew him. But....my opinion, well steeped by cohorting in this industry, is this:

As good as Jake was, and as much as he was further immortalized through the work of Martin Scorsese and Robert De Niro; his abilities in the ring were a full level below those of Marcel Cerdan. The records of the two speak in support of this contention.

Mr. Lamotta logged 19 (17 legit) setbacks across his career; among them a pair to AAU champ Jimmy Reeves where Reeves improved on his efforts from the first match to the 2nd, a nod to veteran Nate Bolden who the press stated had "a clear edge throughout", Laurent Dauthuille, Irish Bob Murphy, Cecil Hudson, and he never maintained a streak beyond 15 strait.
Though portrayed as being ferocious in Scorsese's great film, Jake was not a big puncher at all, and relied on busy volume and a deep reserve of toughness instead. It needn't be said, the fact that LaMotta also beat a host of very good fighters too, like 40-0 Ray Robinson (going 1-5 in their series), Fritzie Zivic (3-1), Silent Hairston, Robert Villemain (1-1), Jose Basora (2-1-1), Joey DeJohn, Tommy Yarosz, Tommy Bell (x3), Tony Janiro, George Costner, Bert Lytell, Walter "Pipeye" Woods and Bob Satterfield, to name a few.

But Cerdan, who fought most often in Europe where boxing was booming in the years after the war, had his own impressive collection of scalps that included the famous Valencian Primo Rubio, Czech standout Eduard Hrabak, Cleto Locatelli, Gustave Humery, Amedeo "Gorilla" Deyana, Alfred Katter, Congolese Al Baker, Felix Wouters, Paris rivals Roland Coureau and Roger Cadot, Algerian Omar Kouidri, Gaspard Deridder, "The Rock of New Mexico" Larry Cisneros, Black Murderers' Row great Holman Williams, Robert Charron, great contender Georgie Abrams, Scottish middleweight Champion Bert Gilroy, Jean Walczak, Harold Green, **** Turpin, Belguim hero Cyrille Delannoit, Texas contender LaVern Roach, legenday world champion Tony Zale, and many others.


In 1949, having won the title and losing out on his chance to prove that he could beat Cerdan for real, LaMotta agreed to an over the limit non-title match in December with another Frenchman, Robert Villemain, and he was easily beaten:

https://www.newspapers.com/image/603...ciOiJIUzI1NiIs InR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJmcmVlLXZpZXctaWQiOjYwMzE2MTM0L CJpYXQiOjE3MTUzNTM4NTQsImV4cCI6MTcxNTQ0MDI1NH0.reD pOoNTysxtIgmvULG32TfqdYlPiBSuy4uXXcqf4Qk


Earler in the year, in preparation for his challenge to the no. 1 Frenchman, LaMotta and Villemain, the decided no. 2, had their first encounter, and it went like this:

https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Ja...n_(1st_meeting)

"Jake LaMotta won an unpopular split 12 round decision over Robert Villemain of France after a great fight Friday night before 11,491 fans at MSG. The fans booed the decision for more than 5 minutes. They hooted LaMotta as Jake climbed down from the ring and they gave the Frenchman a great ovation. There were no knockdowns during the bout but LaMotta appeared to be staggered in at least three rounds. Villemain won the fans with his persistent short-hooking attack to the head that caused far more damage than LaMotta's wide swings. And it was the Frenchman that did most of the forcing.

On March 28, 1949, three days after the bout, NYSAC chairman Eddie Eagan suspended indefinitely referee Harry Ebbetts and judge Harold Barnes because of their scoring in the bout, with them not to receive assignments for an indefinite period. Eagan stated, "In view of the international importance of the bout and the fact that their cards were contrary to the viewpoint of practically all those who witnessed the contest, especially the members of the commission, it was felt that disciplinary action was required."

It is noteworthy that just prior the this fight, LaMotta was soundly beaten by yet another French contender, Laurent Dauthuille, "The Tarzan of Buzenval" in Montreal.

My feeling is that the brilliant Cerdan would have regained his title without any trouble, and the legend of LaMotta would have been substantially diminished.

Through the tragedy of one came opportunity for another.
But LaMotta was no Marcel Cerdan.

Point out when,
Deyana
Derrider
Hrabak
Wouters
Coureau
Cadot
Cisneros
Gilroy
Charron
Katter
Were ever top ten ranked?
There is a lot of filler on Cerdan's record.
Yes Lamotta had more defeats ,he was fighting better opposition!


Edgar no7
Edgar no 7 Again
Wilson no2
Ray no1
Zivic no8
Zivic no 8 Again
Welch no8
Lytell no 10
Bell no 1Raa*** no8
Bell no2
Janiro no10
Villemain no8
Mitri no4
Dauthille no7
Murphy no6

15 wins over ranked men.
How many wins does Cerdan have over them?

Cerdan has ,apart from his victory over Zale ,wins over4 ranked men.
Williams
Abrams
Raa***
Delannoit.Who also beat him

Yes some of Jake's wins were over welters.Some are over light heavies too.
Two thirds of Cerdan's wins are over welters, and welters nobody has much heard of!
Lamotta wasnt a huge puncher,but he hit hard enough to floor Robinson twice.

No Lamotta wasn't any Cerdan ,he was better, and so was Marcel Thil,who beat more ranked fighters.

[Willow The Wisp]

Point out when,
Deyana
Derrider
Hrabak
Wouters
Coureau
Cadot
Cisneros
Gilroy
Charron
Katter
Were ever top ten ranked?
There is a lot of filler on Cerdan's record.
Yes Lamotta had more defeats ,he was fighting better opposition!


Edgar no7
Edgar no 7 Again
Wilson no2
Ray no1
Zivic no8
Zivic no 8 Again
Welch no8
Lytell no 10
Bell no 1Raa*** no8
Bell no2
Janiro no10
Villemain no8
Mitri no4
Dauthille no7
Murphy no6

15 wins over ranked men.
How many wins does Cerdan have over them?

Ceran has apart from his victory over Zale ,wins over4 ranked men.
Williams
Abrams
Raa***
Delannoit.Who also beat him

Yes some of Jake's wins were over welters.Some are over light heavies too.
Two thirds of Cerdan's wins are over welters, and welters nobody has much heard of!
Lamotta wasnt a huge puncher,but he hit hard enough to floor Robinson twice.

No Lamotta wasn't any Cerdan ,he was better, and so was Marcel Thil.

Less hastily composed.

[cfang]

I fancy cerdan to win this on pts

[Ivich]

Joe Louis, on behalf of the IBC (Frankie Carbo) gave LaMotta a gold, ***eled championship belt. (NYT June 17th, 1949)

This was the first IBC promoted championship fight; LaMotta was getting paid back for the Billy Fox fight; Louis would be bought-out of the IBC a year later.

If the IBC was to promote the rematch, the least likely outcome is Cerdan by PTS. (Especially if it was planned for New York.) Cerdan by KO, maybe. Any close fight goes to LaMotta.*

It was how Carbo shaped the game to his advantage. 1. Who got the shot at the title was first. 2. Then any close fights went to the house.

LaMotta was house.

This was a repeated tactic of Carbo.

* You figure any fight that goes the distance between them will be close enough to steal.

I'm not sure that Lamotta was "house" ,he did the business with the mob once.