Marciano considered a heavy hitter?

[mickey malone]

like moore and um...um....um.....um.....

but he did fight and beat former/current world undisputed heavy weight title holders...walcolt, charles, and louis

how many did liston beat? 1? to get his title then lost it after how many defense's? 1?

Says it all really!

[TheGreatA]

Unfortunately Liston didn't have the chance of getting Johansson and Marciano in the ring with him. As an older man he would have also had a fair chance against a young Frazier whose management did not want to put Joe against him.

I imagine he would have beaten an older Rocky and Ingemar Johansson, who retired instead of facing Liston in 1963.

He could have also beaten an older Ezzard Charles to a pulp but I'm glad that fight didn't happen.

[mickey malone]

Unfortunately Liston didn't have the chance of getting Johansson and Marciano in the ring with him. As an older man he would have also had a fair chance against a young Frazier whose management did not want to put Joe against him.

I imagine he would have beaten an older Rocky and Ingemar Johansson, who retired instead of facing Liston in 1963.

He could have also beaten an older Ezzard Charles to a pulp but I'm glad that fight didn't happen.

I agree, Liston would have beaten the Marciano who fought Moore, and he would have also crushed Johansson, who I believe retired early rather than face him..
Your right about Charles to.. My argument was solely based on a prime for prime basis, in which I think Marciano would come out on top..
My reasoning is fairly simple.. The Rock had a much hungrier appetite for sustained violence, than anyone Liston ever engaged, & I'd say he's only 2nd to Ali in the granite chin department.. Sonny was used to hitting guys who stayed hit, where as Marciano would get back up & recover quickly.. Liston would surely lose heart, & get clobbered in the later rounds..

[TheGreatA]

I agree, Liston would have beaten the Marciano who fought Moore, and he would have also crushed Johansson, who I believe retired early rather than face him..
Your right about Charles to.. My argument was solely based on a prime for prime basis, in which I think Marciano would come out on top..
My reasoning is fairly simple.. The Rock had a much hungrier appetite for sustained violence, than anyone Liston ever engaged, & I'd say he's only 2nd to Ali in the granite chin department.. Sonny was used to hitting guys who stayed hit, where as Marciano would get back up & recover quickly.. Liston would surely lose heart, & get clobbered in the later rounds..

I think Liston's style would be poison for Marciano but obviously there's no way to prove this. Liston's courage is suspect due to the Ali fights but I believe he was a very determined man in his prime.

[mickey malone]

I think Liston's style would be poison for Marciano but obviously there's no way to prove this. Liston's courage is suspect due to the Ali fights but I believe he was a very determined man in his prime.

I know he won a bout with a broken jaw, but had that injury been inflicted by Marciano, I doubt he'd have made it to the final bell..

[TheGreatA]

I know he won a bout with a broken jaw, but had that injury been inflicted by Marciano, I doubt he'd have made it to the final bell..

I don't believe so either but then again I tend to believe that if Marciano were to break anyone's jaw, including Muhammad Ali, they would have a hard time going the distance, and very little chance of actually winning.

I was impressed how Liston came back from the first round beating Cleveland Williams inflected on him. He was really dominated in that round. The broken nose was pouring blood but Liston kept pouring it on and eventually caught Williams.

[IMG]http://img.***********.com/albums/v309/TheManchine/Signaturet/listonwilliams.jpg[/IMG]

Against Eddie Machen, Liston could not catch the clever Machen with any solid blows and the referee was on him for every punch he threw to the body. Liston responded by putting on more and more pressure every round and won a convincing if not the most impressive decision.

[Benny Leonard]

I agree, Liston would have beaten the Marciano who fought Moore, and he would have also crushed Johansson, who I believe retired early rather than face him..
Your right about Charles to.. My argument was solely based on a prime for prime basis, in which I think Marciano would come out on top..
My reasoning is fairly simple.. The Rock had a much hungrier appetite for sustained violence, than anyone Liston ever engaged, & I'd say he's only 2nd to Ali in the granite chin department.. Sonny was used to hitting guys who stayed hit, where as Marciano would get back up & recover quickly.. Liston would surely lose heart, & get clobbered in the later rounds..

Two things I've always wondered and anybody can answer this:


How do we know where Rocky’s heart is in strength (since people jump on the greatest heart of all time talk), or maybe I should stick more with confidence (even though I think they are connected) since he never fought a young fighter that was 200+ pounds that was good and undefeated (who could test him)...especially a fighter that was say, 6'3+, 200+ pounds?
For example: How do we know how he reacts to a fighter like a Prime Ali...or a Prime Joe Frazier...or a Prime George Foreman and so on?


Chin: Rocky never fought guys like Shavers, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, Norton, etc. so how do we know how "great" his chin was compared to others that fought the bigger guys?




Edit name/spelling....Rocky.

[mickey malone]

Two things I've always wondered and anybody can answer this:


How do we know where Ricky’s heart is in strength (since people jump on the greatest heart of all time talk), or maybe I should stick more with confidence (even though I think they are connected) since he never fought a young fighter that was 200+ pounds that was good and undefeated (who could test him)...especially a fighter that was say, 6'3+, 200+ pounds?
For example: How do we know how he reacts to a fighter like a Prime Ali...or a Prime Joe Frazier...or a Prime George Foreman and so on?


Chin: Rocky never fought guys like Shavers, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, Norton, etc. so how do we know how "great" his chin was compared to others that fought the bigger guys?




BBL

Yeah, Answer to the 1st question, would have to be: Superior conditioning

Answer to question 2, I'd say he'd probably lose to prime 200+ guys like Holmes, Ali, Foreman, Lewis etc.. Liston, would be the best he could beat.. I don't think height really comes into it.. Liston, for the record was just a half inch over 6ft..

I'd pick both Liston & Marciano to triumph over Shavers, Lyle and Norton..