How good was Roy Jones at heavyweight?

[them_apples]

I am typing from my PC, so it should rid the problem I get with artifacts...

Recently Jones has been brought up as possibly the smallest man to ever win a heavyweight title (mind you there were 4 titles in his day to pick from). Jones was 5 ft 10 with a 74 reach and started at 154 lbs.

I think most of us are quick to say Jones loses vs better heavyweights. However, it should be pointed out that Jones didn't just beat Ruiz, he dominated him. The fight was not close and Ruiz couldn't do anything. Ruiz has done much better vs larger men.

When Jones moved down in weight and probably got off the PEDS is when Tarver found his chin.

So when we think of Jones at HW, think of the best strongest version (at HW), the one we saw against Ruiz

I think from watching this video, Jones could give a lot of lesser skilled heavies fits and is being written off. Just because he didn't bother to continue at HW doesn't mean he wouldn't have had some success. James Toney did and he was obese.

Let's assess his style:

Jones is an out fighter with a lot of speed and agility. He usually is in position before his opponents are, and is very hard to hit clean in the middle of the ring.
By this measure anyone who boxes with him will give Jones more of a chance to beat them. The strong pressure fighters like Frazier, Tyson, Marciano and even Tua will very likely knock Jones out. Jones won't be able to hold them off and once they are in close it's over for Jones.

However, A guy like Joshua or Wlad who will simply follow him around pawing at the air trying to hit a very hard target, may end up punching air for 12 rounds. Let's not act like Usyk didn't do this Joshua, and Wlad majorly struggled with David Haye, the poor man's version of Roy Jones. Haye is another severely blown up fighter.

I think the biggest issue Jones will have at HW is his chin, not his size. his speed alone will be too much for the right heavyweight.

[Ivich]

I am typing from my PC, so it should rid the problem I get with artifacts...

Recently Jones has been brought up as possibly the smallest man to ever win a heavyweight title (mind you there were 4 titles in his day to pick from). Jones was 5 ft 10 with a 74 reach and started at 154 lbs.

I think most of us are quick to say Jones loses vs better heavyweights. However, it should be pointed out that Jones didn't just beat Ruiz, he dominated him. The fight was not close and Ruiz couldn't do anything. Ruiz has done much better vs larger men.

When Jones moved down in weight and probably got off the PEDS is when Tarver found his chin.

So when we think of Jones at HW, think of the best strongest version (at HW), the one we saw against Ruiz

I think from watching this video, Jones could give a lot of lesser skilled heavies fits and is being written off. Just because he didn't bother to continue at HW doesn't mean he wouldn't have had some success. James Toney did and he was obese.

Let's assess his style:

Jones is an out fighter with a lot of speed and agility. He usually is in position before his opponents are, and is very hard to hit clean in the middle of the ring.
By this measure anyone who boxes with him will give Jones more of a chance to beat them. The strong pressure fighters like Frazier, Tyson, Marciano and even Tua will very likely knock Jones out. Jones won't be able to hold them off and once they are in close it's over for Jones.

However, A guy like Joshua or Wlad who will simply follow him around pawing at the air trying to hit a very hard target, may end up punching air for 12 rounds. Let's not act like Usyk didn't do this Joshua, and Wlad majorly struggled with David Haye, the poor man's version of Roy Jones. Haye is another severely blown up fighter.

I think the biggest issue Jones will have at HW is his chin, not his size. his speed alone will be too much for the right heavyweight.

Jones was 5'11" and weighed 193lbs when he beat the number 5 Ring ranked Ruiz for an alphabet version of the title.The Champion was Lewis with Vitali the number 1 contender.
Jones cherry picked the least dangerous alphabet version of the champs because he saw him as beatable and he was right.

Jones could have made a bundle challenging Lewis and /or Vitali, but he knew that realistically he had little chance of being successful against them or any quality heavy and so moved south again after his one and only foray into the heavyweight division.

Usyk is 6'3" and 222lbs,he is also a southpaw.He is fast on his feet and with his punches, and an excellent boxer , he also takes a very good shot.

Wlad did not struggle with Haye who is 6'3" and weighed211lbs for that fight.

Haye fought an unambitious fight and appeared happy just to survive.
It was a comfortably easy fight for Wlad who was never extended,and the scorecards reflected it.

• Judge: Stanley Christodoulou 116-110
• Judge: Michael Pernick 118-108
• Judge: Adalaide Byrd 117-109
• In his 32 pro fight Haye has only weighed in at under 200lbs 3 times
• 198lbs ,199 3/4lbs 199 1/2lbs, these are day before we weigh ins so in all likelyhood he was over 200lbs for all three of them.
• I think Haye ko's Jones at heavyweight and I would place a decent bet that Wlad does too.

[them_apples]

Jones was 5'11" and weighed 193lbs when he beat the number 5 Ring ranked Ruiz for an alphabet version of the title.The Champion was Lewis with Vitali the number 1 contender.
Jones cherry picked the least dangerous alphabet version of the champs because he saw him as beatable and he was right.

Jones could have made a bundle challenging Lewis and /or Vitali, but he knew that realistically he had little chance of being successful against them or any quality heavy and so moved south again after his one and only foray into the heavyweight division.

Usyk is 6'3" and 222lbs,he is also a southpaw.He is fast on his feet and with his punches, and an excellent boxer , he also takes a very good shot.

Wlad did not struggle with Haye who is 6'3" and weighed211lbs for that fight.

Haye fought an unambitious fight and appeared happy just to survive.
It was a comfortably easy fight for Wlad who was never extended,and the scorecards reflected it.

• Judge: Stanley Christodoulou 116-110
• Judge: Michael Pernick 118-108
• Judge: Adalaide Byrd 117-109
• In his 32 pro fight Haye has only weighed in at under 200lbs 3 times
• 198lbs ,199 3/4lbs 199 1/2lbs, these are day before we weigh ins so in all likelyhood he was over 200lbs for all three of them.
• I think Haye ko's Jones at heavyweight and I would place a decent bet that Wlad does too.

Those score cards are misleading as Wlad wasn’t able to do much at all, he simply just did a bit more than Haye. But Wlad struggled to hit Haye.

Usyk is slow compared to Roy. We also have no idea how well Usyk takes punches because I have never seen him take a good punch.

I wouldn’t pick Roy over Vitali or Lewis, but it would make sense his first bout at heavy should be of lesser competition. I think Roy was just too small and figured he would have to stay on gear to even make the HW minimum.

[Ivich]

Those score cards are misleading as Wlad wasnât able to do much at all, he simply just did a bit more than Haye. But Wlad struggled to hit Haye.

Usyk is slow compared to Roy. We also have no idea how well Usyk takes punches because I have never seen him take a good punch.

I wouldnât pick Roy over Vitali or Lewis, but it would make sense his first bout at heavy should be of lesser competition. I think Roy was just too small and figured he would have to stay on gear to even make the HW minimum.

>

So every scorecard that I produce that directly refutes your statements is wrong?
eg.
The 1st Marciano v Walcott fight was not fiercely competitive with Walcott in the lead at the time of the stoppage.
The 1st Charles fight was also not competitive.
Nor the 1st Lastarza fight.
Nor the 1st Lowry fight.
All of them ,according to you, were one sided exercises in survival for Marciano's opponents and the judges were all wrong.
This despite you never having seen the 1st Charles fight .
The 1st Lastarza fight.
Or the 1st Lowry fight.

Have you any idea how absurd your position is here?

Roy's first bout at heavyweight was also his last! Why was that?
You saying Jones was just too small at 5'11"and 193lbs just proves my point, and destroys yours!
Usyk took good punches from Joshua,and Dubois both very heavy hitters watch the fights!

Usyk's hand speed is not on a par with Jones, whose was? But his footwork is faster and far superior!

Jones despite his talent ,was never a big draw ,his safety first style turned off the fans,yet, when in a position to cash in on his alphabet heavyweight title he declined to do so and instead dropped back down in weight.

Why did he do that?

Why did he not go for the big bucks which were and ,always have been, in the heavyweight division?

When are you going to produce the verified proof that Marciano hit the 300lbs bag for 30rds after sparring?

I am going to Mauritius on Tuesday evening,can I expect you to provide it before then?

[them_apples]

>

So every scorecard that I produce that directly refutes your statements is wrong?
eg.
The 1st Marciano v Walcott fight was not fiercely competitive with Walcott in the lead at the time of the stoppage.
The 1st Charles fight was also not competitive.
Nor the 1st Lastarza fight.
Nor the 1st Lowry fight.
All of them ,according to you, were one sided exercises in survival for Marciano's opponents and the judges were all wrong.
This despite you never having seen the 1st Charles fight .
The 1st Lastarza fight.
Or the 1st Lowry fight.

Have you any idea how absurd your position is here?

Roy's first bout at heavyweight was also his last! Why was that?
You saying Jones was just too small at 5'11"and 193lbs just proves my point, and destroys yours!
Usyk took good punches from Joshua,and Dubois both very heavy hitters watch the fights!

Usyk's hand speed is not on a par with Jones, whose was? But his footwork is faster and far superior!

Jones despite his talent ,was never a big draw ,his safety first style turned off the fans,yet, when in a position to cash in on his alphabet heavyweight title he declined to do so and instead dropped back down in weight.

Why did he do that?

Why did he not go for the big bucks which were and ,always have been, in the heavyweight division?

When are you going to produce the verified proof that Marciano hit the 300lbs bag for 30rds after sparring?

I am going to Mauritius on Tuesday evening,can I expect you to provide it before then?

part of the first Marciano vs Charles fight are on youtube

no I haven’t seen them all. But every one thats been listed as Marciano struggling is a steamroll.

for example ****ell. Marciano takes one good shot from him then proceeds to beat him unconscious making me doubt the validity of the judging.

today we have terrible judging as well.

canelo vs ggg 1?
pacquiao vs Bradley?
loma vs Haney?

this is bull**** as the history books get written this way. In Marcianos case he knocked them out - but the myth is he was losing. No he wasn’t. He was destroying them and thats why they ended up getting knocked out.

another example is Chavez vs Taylor 1. I am glad they stopped that fight because Chavez was beating Taylor up ALL NIGHT but the ****** commentating was selling Taylor as the winner because it was Chavez last fight on that network. Look at Taylor by the end. Is that a winner?

[QueensburyRules]

I am typing from my PC, so it should rid the problem I get with artifacts...

Recently Jones has been brought up as possibly the smallest man to ever win a heavyweight title (mind you there were 4 titles in his day to pick from). Jones was 5 ft 10 with a 74 reach and started at 154 lbs.

I think most of us are quick to say Jones loses vs better heavyweights. However, it should be pointed out that Jones didn't just beat Ruiz, he dominated him. The fight was not close and Ruiz couldn't do anything. Ruiz has done much better vs larger men.

When Jones moved down in weight and probably got off the PEDS is when Tarver found his chin.

So when we think of Jones at HW, think of the best strongest version (at HW), the one we saw against Ruiz

I think from watching this video, Jones could give a lot of lesser skilled heavies fits and is being written off. Just because he didn't bother to continue at HW doesn't mean he wouldn't have had some success. James Toney did and he was obese.

Let's assess his style:

Jones is an out fighter with a lot of speed and agility. He usually is in position before his opponents are, and is very hard to hit clean in the middle of the ring.
By this measure anyone who boxes with him will give Jones more of a chance to beat them. The strong pressure fighters like Frazier, Tyson, Marciano and even Tua will very likely knock Jones out. Jones won't be able to hold them off and once they are in close it's over for Jones.

However, A guy like Joshua or Wlad who will simply follow him around pawing at the air trying to hit a very hard target, may end up punching air for 12 rounds. Let's not act like Usyk didn't do this Joshua, and Wlad majorly struggled with David Haye, the poor man's version of Roy Jones. Haye is another severely blown up fighter.

I think the biggest issue Jones will have at HW is his chin, not his size. his speed alone will be too much for the right heavyweight.

- - Dirty Johnny was controlled by the ref.

Sad you claimed to have boxed, yet like jabby, you know squat…

[Ivich]

part of the first Marciano vs Charles fight are on youtube

no I havenâÃÂÃÂt seen them all. But every one thats been listed as Marciano struggling is a steamroll.

for example ****ell. Marciano takes one good shot from him then proceeds to beat him unconscious making me doubt the validity of the judging.

today we have terrible judging as well.

canelo vs ggg 1?
pacquiao vs Bradley?
loma vs Haney?

this is bull**** as the history books get written this way. In Marcianos case he knocked them out - but the myth is he was losing. No he wasnât. He was destroying them and thats why they ended up getting knocked out.

another example is Chavez vs Taylor 1. I am glad they stopped that fight because Chavez was beating Taylor up ALL NIGHT but the ****** commentating was selling Taylor as the winner because it was Chavez last fight on that network. Look at Taylor by the end. Is that a winner?

Clips of about 5 rds are available of the 1st Charles fight Nobody has said Marciano was struggling with ****ell,it was a gimmee defence and Marciano was particularly dirty in that fight.
Walcott was in front in the 1st fight here are the scorecards7-4.8-4, 7-5.

Charles1st fight. Marciano in front by scores of 8-5,9-5,8-6.

Lastarza 1st fight.,5-5,4-5 ,5-4 Marciano wins,You have not seen this fight .

Lowry 1st fight,

Michael J. Thomas of the Providence Journal wrote, "Marciano did not win the fight. This reporter gave it to Lowry, six rounds to four.”

The crowd of 3,696 booed the decision and some wondered if Lowry had thrown the fight. "There were some questions as to whether Lowry, who had come close to knocking out Marciano in the second, third and fourth rounds, deliberately bogged down in his attack after the fourth stanza," Thomas wrote. "Lowry stopped using his uppercut after the fourth. He went into a shell and only occasionally landed power shots. He seemed to be carrying Marciano."

In his book Rocky Marciano: The Rock of His Times, Russell Sullivan wrote the following: "It was Lowry, not Marciano, who was on the verge of scoring an early knockout, stinging Marciano with two terrific rights in the first round and then rocking him with two mighty uppercuts in the second. By the fourth, a staggered Marciano seemed just one punch away from being knocked out. But then, inexplicably, Lowry stopped fighting and retreated into a shell despite warnings from the referee to open up and a cascade of boos from the crowd. To many, it appeared that Lowry was deliberately carrying Marciano. Was foul play afoot? Was Lowry getting paid to lose? Or was he merely tiring? Whatever the reason, a revived Marciano managed to rally in the late rounds even though many of his punches missed their mark or lacked force. On the basis of his aggressiveness and constant punching, Marciano won a unanimous decision from the judges. Most observers felt, however, that Lowry should have won."
Lowry, who earned $2,500 for the fight, denied he threw the fight. "I beat Rocky that night and that’s it," he said. "He changed his strategy in the fifth round and made a fight of it, but I won two of the last six rounds after winning the first four. It was a hometown decision."
You have not seen this fight either.

None of these fights were one sided exercises in survival !

As usual, when confronted by facts you go straight into vehement denial.

"The scoring/judges were crooked."

Cruisers and Light heavies , add weight to fight Heavyweights because they don't know what they are doing etc.

I've been posting on various boxing sites for nearly 20 years and I've been running into worshipping Marciano fan boys like you with monotonous regularity,but fair play to you.

You take the prize NONE OF THEM have ever been so rabidly deaf to reason and facts that do not jive with their agenda.

NONE OF THEM have ever offered up such bizarre excuses.

NONE OF THEM have ever made quite so many unsubstantiated claims as you have, all the while solemnly declaring the rest of us don't know what we are looking at.

Claims like Marciano.after sparring, hit the 300lbs bag for 30rds,claims that ,when you are asked to prove them,you immediately fall silent on.

It's been an education conversing with you.I've learned nothing about boxing from you ,but quite a bit about human nature,and for that I thank you!

[them_apples]

Clips of about 5 rds are available of the 1st Charles fight Nobody has said Marciano was struggling with ****ell,it was a gimmee defence and Marciano was particularly dirty in that fight.
Walcott was in front in the 1st fight here are the scorecards7-4.8-4, 7-5.

Charles1st fight. Marciano in front by scores of 8-5,9-5,8-6.

Lastarza 1st fight.,5-5,4-5 ,5-4 Marciano wins,You have not seen this fight .

Lowry 1st fight,

Michael J. Thomas of the Providence Journal wrote, "Marciano did not win the fight. This reporter gave it to Lowry, six rounds to four.�

The crowd of 3,696 booed the decision and some wondered if Lowry had thrown the fight. "There were some questions as to whether Lowry, who had come close to knocking out Marciano in the second, third and fourth rounds, deliberately bogged down in his attack after the fourth stanza," Thomas wrote. "Lowry stopped using his uppercut after the fourth. He went into a shell and only occasionally landed power shots. He seemed to be carrying Marciano."

In his book Rocky Marciano: The Rock of His Times, Russell Sullivan wrote the following: "It was Lowry, not Marciano, who was on the verge of scoring an early knockout, stinging Marciano with two terrific rights in the first round and then rocking him with two mighty uppercuts in the second. By the fourth, a staggered Marciano seemed just one punch away from being knocked out. But then, inexplicably, Lowry stopped fighting and retreated into a shell despite warnings from the referee to open up and a cascade of boos from the crowd. To many, it appeared that Lowry was deliberately carrying Marciano. Was foul play afoot? Was Lowry getting paid to lose? Or was he merely tiring? Whatever the reason, a revived Marciano managed to rally in the late rounds even though many of his punches missed their mark or lacked force. On the basis of his aggressiveness and constant punching, Marciano won a unanimous decision from the judges. Most observers felt, however, that Lowry should have won."
Lowry, who earned $2,500 for the fight, denied he threw the fight. "I beat Rocky that night and that’s it," he said. "He changed his strategy in the fifth round and made a fight of it, but I won two of the last six rounds after winning the first four. It was a hometown decision."
You have not seen this fight either.

None of these fights were one sided exercises in survival !

As usual, when confronted by facts you go straight into vehement denial.

"The scoring/judges were crooked."

Cruisers and Light heavies , add weight to fight Heavyweights because they don't know what they are doing etc.

I've been posting on various boxing sites for nearly 20 years and I've been running into worshipping Marciano fan boys like you with monotonous regularity,but fair play to you.

You take the prize NONE OF THEM have ever been so rabidly deaf to reason and facts that do not jive with their agenda.

NONE OF THEM have ever offered up such bizarre excuses.

NONE OF THEM have ever made quite so many unsubstantiated claims as you have, all the while solemnly declaring the rest of us don't know what we are looking at.

Claims like Marciano.after sparring, hit the 300lbs bag for 30rds,claims that ,when you are asked to prove them,you immediately fall silent on.

It's been an education conversing with you.I've learned nothing about boxing from you ,but quite a bit about human nature,and for that I thank you!

we haven’t seen the Lowry fight. And every description of Marcianos fights have not been accurate. Early on in his career Marciano was so inexperienced and unpolished he would often just out tough his oponents and land something big. He was the underdog for many bout early on. Eventually he turned himself into an unbeatable monster. Marciano is a legend. All time great

I would bet just as much Marciano threw something heavy that hurt Lowry but nobody picked it up. Either way we havent’t see that fight.

furthermore, Rocky only had about what 15 ammy bouts? He got progressively better throughout his career, even self admittedly - because Lowry is not better than Charles or Moore.

in addition to talking about a fight we haven’t seen, where does Ali sit when we say Cooper nearly knock him cold and Dundee saved his ass? Or Ali losing to Doug Jones. Or at least a draw. People don’t watch that fight close enough, Jones was tagging Ali. Ali was just moving his hands. Does Ali get a pass?

you found one ***** in Marcianos armor, an apparent robbery according to Lowry. I can think of far bigger question marks lurking above other great fighters.

[PBAC]

He did what he did and did it well at a time period that allowed him to do it.