What Is The Minimum Number Of Fights To Be Considered An ATG?

[Slugfester]

Since you are determined to pin me down in our good humored wrangle,I shall give some examples of fighters I consider all time greats,and some I don't.
Middles.
Mickey Walker
Ray Robinson
Harry Greb
Carlos Monzon
Marvin Hagler
Stanley Ketchel


Middles
Great but not ATG's
Joey Giardello
**** Tiger
Jake Lamotta
Tony Zale
Freddie Steele
Roy Jones

How many fights qualify a fighter?
If you have 50 against dross and win them all and then one against a quality fighter and beat him,you don't qualify.

If you have 30 wins against variable opposition, some fair ,some good ,some very good, then beat one or 2 greats,you are perhaps entitled to consideration.as a great fighter?

If you have 40 wins with a preponderance of ranked men amongst them and say 2 great wins over recognized great fighters you possibly qualify as an ATG.

For me it all hinges on who you are fighting,and having said that I'm contradicting myself some what with Lomachenko whose resume is not extensive but filled with excellent scalps,and he is at 35, fighting men in their prime whilst above his natural division.

An Example Of Non Greats.imo
Norton
Young
Kovalev
J Torres
Graziano
Hamed

Your original question is intruiging and very welcome among quite a lot of dross,but I find myself unable to articulate a sensible answer that would satisfy you,which is no doubt on me.
I expect you will have better luck with other replies.

What satisfies me is any answer, since it is a statistics study relying on answers, though I like comments too, but I don't make any demands for an answer. Being satisfied with that answer is your burden. You cannot find an answer that satisfies yourself. Despite that, you are making fine progress. After some difficulty with the concept, you have brought out your own list of ATGs, and I think you are close. In the end it is not Unified Field Theory, just something we guess at.

I will give you a little study tip that others have used: Try to decide which answers given so far you feel are too low or too high. A man of your cranial resources should zero right in to his own opinion with this useful method.

P.S. How's the old love life treating you, I have been meaning to ask?

[Ivich]

What satisfies me is any answer, since it is a statistics study relying on answers, though I like comments too, but I don't make any demands for an answer. Being satisfied with that answer is your burden. You cannot find an answer that satisfies yourself. Despite that, you are making fine progress. After some difficulty with the concept, you have brought out your own list of ATGs, and I think you are close. In the end it is not Unified Field Theory, just something we guess at.

I will give you a little study tip that others have used: Try to decide which answers given so far you feel are too low or too high. A man of your cranial resources should zero right in to his own opinion with this useful method.

P.S. How's the old love life treating you, I have been meaning to ask?

I don't think I can find a definitive answer that will satisfy me.
Please no more insincere flattery,my cranial resources are average, possibly lower than average now , but that may be down to age.
At 75 my love life is as good as can be expected,4 days in Paris has been something of a help.

[Dr. Z]

Atleast 7 title fights.

I do not know about that anymore. It greatly depends on who the man fought in the title fighters. Were they a bunch of noddies? I would use the benchmarks 5 ring rated top 10 fighters fought in title matches as the benchmark.

[Slugfester]

I don't think I can find a definitive answer that will satisfy me.
Please no more insincere flattery,my cranial resources are average, possibly lower than average now , but that may be down to age.
At 75 my love life is as good as can be expected,4 days in Paris has been something of a help.

I don't think you can either, since apparently it has to be definitive, but I wanted to give you every chance to flower, you obstinate boy you. If you find a definition, give us a shout out, will you? Speaking of boys, I hear an old fashioned tongue kiss atop the Eiffel tower is unforgettable. Were you lucky enough to have this experience with any of your cab drivers or busboys? And I am sure your cranial dimensions are awesome, you little rascal.

[Ivich]

I don't think you can either, since apparently it has to be definitive, but I wanted to give you every chance to flower, you obstinate boy you. If you find a definition, give us a shout out, will you? Speaking of boys, I hear an old fashioned tongue kiss atop the Eiffel tower is unforgettable. Were you lucky enough to have this experience with any of your cab drivers or busboys? And I am sure your cranial dimensions are awesome, you little rascal.

I stayed near the Eiffel Tower but did not go up it.I am straight and was with my Wife , my best friend and his Wife, the taxis we took were to take us to restaurants.in Montparnasse.La Rotonde,La Coupole ,and Les Deux Magots.

[GhostofDempsey]

It really depends on who they fought. Monzon had 100 fights, 80 of them in Argentina against marginal competition. Loma has 20 fights and a deep resume that includes titles in three weight classes. That begs the question, do we count a fighter’s amateur career towards his ATG status?

[Slugfester]

It really depends on who they fought. Monzon had 100 fights, 80 of them in Argentina against marginal competition. Loma has 20 fights and a deep resume that includes titles in three weight classes. That begs the question, do we count a fighter’s amateur career towards his ATG status?

No, we don't count amateurs, where one of the Willies said they do not even allow ducking a punch and they do their best to keep a fight from breaking out.

For the number I have in mind, their will be no time for dawdling on the margins. Our boy will have to start right out with good opponents, moving briskly along to so-called elites, near-greats, greats and ATGs, if there are any handy.

[Slugfester]

Ideally you would want them to be successful against all styles.Old time trainer manager Jack Hurley said he put Harry Mathews in with guys whose styles made him look good,because his end game was a title shot at Marciano.
Slightly different the Whacko Twins put Cooney in with past it names,that he would look impressive demolishing,but that did not allow him to learn his trade,or realise his full potential, and when he had to step up he was out of his depth.
The fixation with an undefeated record has a lot to answer for in this .

Whatever the number of fights, it must be shown that:

1 He can deal effectively with any style.

2 He can take a hella punch.

3 He can give a hella punch, with a hella arsenal at his disposal.

4 His stamina is worthy

5 His heart is worthy.

6 He probably had a fruitful amateur career, allowing him to skip the preliminaries in the pros and go right after the good competition.

What else?...

[Hustle]

In his 32nd pro fight Jack Dempsey was ko'd in the first round, by someone with 34 losses on his record. Does this mean, that Dempsey is also not an ATG?

Dempsey 14 years as a pro. 5 title defenses. Not an all time great to me.

[Ivich]

It really depends on who they fought. Monzon had 100 fights, 80 of them in Argentina against marginal competition. Loma has 20 fights and a deep resume that includes titles in three weight classes. That begs the question, do we count a fighter’s amateur career towards his ATG status?

Perhaps we can divide them into ATG Amateurs and ATG Pros?

Lazslo Papp may be an ATG amateur ,but no one would seriously consider him so as a professional.

Monzon defended his title 11 times on foreign soil several times in his opponents back yard.He was never beaten for his crown.

Hagler defended his title once outside the US, and lost it to a 3 years retired welterweight,
I'm sure nobody thinks Hagler was not an ATG.

There are quite a few US Champs that may be considered ATG's that never fought outside the US, is doing so a prerequisite for greatness?