Did Monzon retire to avoid Hagler?

[Ivich]

@ Ivich, aka Tony, Mcvey, and Tonto62,

You are truly " pig " sick. Your words were probably a Freudian slip. You don't think I can translate? One of your many falsehoods.

Why is Jack Johnson in this thread? He might be a wife beater who was knocked down by a lower weight fighter. What do you think? Are the any similarities? I don't know about you but I can't name any other fighter who had that happen to them who were confirmed wife beaters and law breakers.

Much like Monzon you defend this criminal, and wife beater. Why? Why are do you do this? Asking you again?

The same reason you admitted giving money to a ********* org. Yes, that happened too.

I report the truth. You don't like it when I do.

Really you waste my time. Your goal is to close yet another thread.

I see you have created this thread elsewhere and they told you the same thing..

You got my thread on Wills closed.I have no wish to gave any thread closed down you made this one for the express purpose of ****ting on Monzon insinuating he retired to avoid Hagler when in fact he retired at 35 having defended his
title against his number one challenger in his 2 last defences.
Hagler was not Ring ranked when Monzon announced his retirement,and it took him a further 3 year s before he won the title,by which time Monzon was 38!

Hagler retired having been defeated by a man who was unranked at middleweight or any other weight ,a man who had not fought professionally for 3 years and had obly 1 fight in the previous 5 years! We have established Hagler was never on Monzon's radar so your attempt to smear him has failed dismally, nobody agreed with you which I expect you are used. to!
Yes I have made a thread on Classic about this and its proven fruitful I am awaiting the translation YOU SAY you are capable of giving us,my question to you is. WHY DON'T YOU?
So far, on your own thread ,you have produced absolutely nothing in the way of proof !
Why Not? If you have the information that Fernandez knocked Monzon down why don't you post it ?
What Monzon or any other fighter did outside the ring has absolutely no relevance to this debate.
If you want to list his or other boxers misdeeds a thread has been created especially for it !
That is the place for such material ,not here!

[Dr. Z]

You got my thread on Wills closed.I have no wish to gave any thread closed down you made this one for the express purpose of ****ting on Monzon insinuating he retired to avoid Hagler when in fact he retired at 35 having defended his
title against his number one challenger in his 2 last defences.
Hagler was not Ring ranked when Monzon announced his retirement,and it took him a further 3 year s before he won the title,by which time Monzon was 38!

Hagler retired having been defeated by a man who was unranked at middleweight or any other weight ,a man who had not fought professionally for 3 years and had obly 1 fight in the previous 5 years! We have established Hagler was never on Monzon's radar so your attempt to smear him has failed dismally, nobody agreed with you which I expect you are used. to!
Yes I have made a thread on Classic about this and its proven fruitful I am awaiting the translation YOU SAY you are capable of giving us,my question to you is. WHY DON'T YOU?
So far, on your own thread ,you have produced absolutely nothing in the way of proof !
Why Not? If you have the information that Fernandez knocked Monzon down why don't you post it ?
What Monzon or any other fighter did outside the ring has absolutely no relevance to this debate.
If you want to list his or other boxers misdeeds a thread has been created especially for it !
That is the place for such material ,not here!

NO, your own words got the thread closed. There is a pattern of you doing this. Keep telling yourself lies. I think you are four threads closed When will it be five? You are keeping the mods busy. Hmmm...

Hagler fought better competition in comparison to Monzon.

I told you Moznon was floored by the 5'7" Fernandez, a former welter.

I told you Monzon feasted on shorter men, with limited reaches in his most famous matches , and sometimes his opponents were past their prime. I could start a tread on this if you deny it, but there really is no point.

I think Monzon did enough to qualify for a top 10 ATG middle weight, but I also think he is light on facing punchers , and did not fight fast with top end hand speed either. As such he is overrated by the media in general.


FACTS

Monzon's chatacter is well know by historians and serious boxing fans.

Now were you not going to message your friend at ESB about this match? What did he say? I could tell you more but you're not my friend and I do not wish to have a conversation with you based on another board's feedback in which you think was banned. Really banned people can not read threads.


I told you what happened and side such information is not on box rec. Apparently it is on SI.


This is enough information for you. Be thankful I shared it.

[Ivich]

NO, your own words got the thread closed. There is a pattern of you doing this. Keep telling yourself lies. I think you are four threads closed When will it be five? You are keeping the mods busy. Hmmm...

Hagler fought better competition in comparison to Monzon.

I told you Moznon was floored by the 5'7" Fernandez, a former welter.

I told you Monzon feasted on shorter men, with limited reaches in his most famous matches , and sometimes his opponents were past their prime. I could start a tread on this if you deny it, but there really is no point.

I think Monzon did enough to qualify for a top 10 ATG middle weight, but I also think he is light on facing punchers , and did not fight fast with top end hand speed either. As such he is overrated by the media in general.


FACTS

Monzon's chatacter is well know by historians and serious boxing fans.

Now were you not going to message your friend at ESB about this match? What did he say? I could tell you more but you're not my friend and I do not wish to have a conversation with you based on another board's feedback in which you think was banned. Really banned people can not read threads.


I told you what happened and side such information is not on box rec. Apparently it is on SI.


This is enough information for you. Be thankful I shared it.

First of all anyone can read threads on ESB ,what they if they,like you are banned cannot do is post on them.
I have no problem IF Fernandez knocked Monzon down but 2 posters elsewhere cast doubt on it because Monzon knocked Fernandez down in the 4 th round and it was reported but the article does not mention Fernandez knocking down Monzon!
Now IF as you say you read Spanish ,WHY have you consistently refused to translate the link I posted?
This would be of benefit to the forum in general,but you refuse to do so WHY?
Did Monzon avoid any challenger who merited a title shot?

After he won the title from 5 '11" Benvenuti Monzon had 2 non title fights,his opponents were
Roy Dale 6'4"
And Roy Lee.6'3"
If he had issues with fighting tall guys why did he pick them?


Fernandez was ranked no 4 in the world at middleweight in the Boxing Illustrated ratings for the period ending August 10th 1966.Monzon was ranked number 41,the fact that Monzon who was ranked number 41 beat him a month later is a very creditable result !

Fernandez was the holder of the Argentine Middleweight title when Monzon fought him,should he have passed on the opportunity to make a name for himself by winning the national title?
Monzon's character has absolutely no relevance to his standing as a great fighter.
If being of good character was a requirement for being in the Hall Of Fame many ,many that are in it would not be ,among those disallowed would be;
Sullivan
Corbett
Jeffries
Johnson
Ketchel
Robinson
McCoy
Attell
Lamotta
Smith
Siki
Lamotta
Just to name a few who were less than upstanding human beings. A few more recent ones that would also be barred ,[and I dont know if they are in it because it means nothing to me ,] would include
MayweatherJnr
Corrales
Chacon
Jordan
Stevenson
Hamed.
But thats enough about the irrelevant bad character of certain boxers.

NewsFlash
I have had success!
Thanks to Slugfester's tip I have been on Google Translate and have the report of the first Monzon v Fernandez fight on Sep 3rd 1966

Here it is!
From Spanish into English.
"
In An Anodyne MatchThe Argentine Middleweight Title Changed Hands."

Argentine Middleweight Title 12 rounds.
Jorge Fernandez [72 kilos300]lost on points in a unanimous decision with Carlos Monzon[71 kilos500]
Mr Alfonso Araujo refereed.and the jurors ruled as follows.
Guisti. 238 Monzon 236 Fernandez.Stern.237and 235.and Eloy.Gonzalez 237 and 235 respectively."
The article states that Monzon knocked Fernandez in the 4th round Nowhere in the report does it say Fernandez knocked Monzon down.
The fight was sored on the principle that the winner of each round got 20 points and that at the end of the fight one fighter must be in front by 3 points or the fight was ruled a draw.
Monzon was in front by a total of 6 points 712 -706 and consequently won.
Many thought Fernandez should have gotten the verdict.
Nothing about Fernandez knocking down Monzon.

Anyone sceptical about this post is very welcome to get it translated themselves as I did via Google Translation,which is free.
In fact I sincerely hope at least one of you does so!.

Because even if I type out the translation word for word,I know at least one poster who will not accept it.

And,if he, as he says reads Spanish, he will not have to go through the rigmarole of the google translating that I have just done therefore he has no excuse for not doing so!.

So put up or shut up!

For anyone still following this.
I would like you to ask yourselves these questions.
Q.Who is posting links to prove his case?
Q.Who has gone to the trouble to translate the original fight report?
Q.Who has provided exactly NOTHING ,despite frequent requests for his sources.and despite him saying he reads Spanish?

[Dr. Z]

Ivich,

First of all anyone can read threads on ESB ,what they if they,like you are banned cannot do is post on them.

What are you babbling about? Now I told you Monzon was knocked down by the 5'7" man. And so did the posters there. It is so like you to argue against what in your mind are unknown facts!

Que algunos le digan a este idiota que es muy estúpido. Pero al menos nos hace reír de él.

[Ivich]

What are you babbling about? Now I told you Monzon was knocked down by the 5'7" man. And so did the posters there. It is so like you to argue against what in your mind are unknown facts!

Que algunos le digan a este idiota que es muy estúpido. Pero al menos nos hace reír de él.

No,they didnt ,they questioned the accuracy of the SI report stating they believed they confused who scored the KD.
The Argentinian report of the fight states Monzon knocked down Fernandez in the 4th round.It makes no mention of Fernandez knocking down Monzon.
IF YOU HAVE PROOF TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIM POST IT!
So far you have posted NOTHING.
Not the fight report ,not the link, not even the name of the newspaper.
WHY IS THAT?

[Ivich]

No,they didnt ,they questioned the accuracy of the SI report stating they believed they confused who scored the KD.
The Argentinian report of the fight states Monzon knocked down Fernandez in the 4th round.It makes no mention of Fernandez knocking down Monzon.
IF YOU HAVE PROOF TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIM POST IT!
So far you have posted NOTHING.
Not the fight report ,not the link, not even the name of the newspaper.
WHY IS THAT?

"The inquiry in this case is specific to a claim that Monzón had been knocked down by Fernández during their first encounter in '66 (not so much the scoring or whether Monzón deserved the win). So far, any evidence to support that claim has not been found.

Conversely, there is evidence to suggest Monzón scored a knockdown against Fernández during the bout in question. The article describing the fight and the knockdown is not a condensed filler piece and is from a local and reputable source.

I see no reason not to cautiously accept the article as evidence of what happened during the bout, with a view to reassessment in view of any new and reliable evidence being provided."

[Ivich]

Monzon hung them up at age 34. Hagler was the heir apparent. IMO, Hagler beat Briscoe more impressively than Monzon did.


So why didn't Monzon fight Hagler next? Was anyone in the press asking for a potential match up between them? Lots of question here.

NOPE.
Nobody was asking for a match with Hagler in1977.
Monzon announced his retirement on August the 29th.1977

Hagler did not make the Ring top ten until after he beat Mike Colbert on November 26th1977.


Hagler did not win the title until September27th 1980, three years after Monzon had retired and between those dates ,there had been 4 other middleweight champions.

[Dr. Z]

No,they didnt ,they questioned the accuracy of the SI report stating they believed they confused who scored the KD.
The Argentinian report of the fight states Monzon knocked down Fernandez in the 4th round.It makes no mention of Fernandez knocking down Monzon.
IF YOU HAVE PROOF TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIM POST IT!
So far you have posted NOTHING.
Not the fight report ,not the link, not even the name of the newspaper.
WHY IS THAT?

You did read the SI report, didn't you? The boxing used to be first rate. But that is not proof enough for you. What do you need video proof on everything?

[Dr. Z]

Ivich


Monzon's character has absolutely no relevance to his standing as a great fighter.
If being of good character was a requirement for being in the Hall Of Fame many ,many that are in it would not be ,among those disallowed would be;
Sullivan
Corbett
Jeffries
Johnson
Ketchel
Robinson
McCoy
Attell
Lamotta
Smith
Siki
Lamotta
Just to name a few who were less than upstanding human beings. A few more recent ones that would also be barred ,[and I dont know if they are in it because it means nothing to me ,] would include
MayweatherJnr
Corrales
Chacon
Jordan
Stevenson
Hamed.
But thats enough about the irrelevant bad character of certain boxers.

You will have to educate me. For example what did Sullivan do on par with Monzon bad deeds? Don't list them in the same breath!

When cornered you move goal posts and inset bad anaolgies. That and list a lot of data that has noting to do with my point. ADMIT IT. It is your bad MO. You're " pig sick "

[Ivich]

You will have to educate me. For example what did Sullivan do on par with Monzon bad deeds? Don't list them in the same breath!

When cornered you move goal posts and inset bad anaolgies. That and list a lot of data that has noting to do with my point. ADMIT IT. It is your bad MO. You're " pig sick "

I haven't compared Sullivan to Monzon.I listed Sullivan as among those champions who were of less than upstanding citizens.He was cited for hitting his companion,was a bully ,a racist who ducked his black challenger ,and an overbearing drunk.

I can't educate you ,nobody can educate pork.
It's strange that you have plenty of time to make silly, meaningless ripostes, but cannot find the time to post your "evidence " that Fernandez floored Monzon?

You are the one cornered and refusing to prove his statement.not me!