Overated by fans/media more so that overtated fighters

[StarshipTrooper]

Fair play.

Im not doubting that Duran was a great fighter, he was a great fighter, its just i dont think his resume makes him the a (4) ATG, its fair to say ive not seen all of Duran's fights at LW but i have watched footage of ....

Leoncio Ortiz
Esteban De Jesus 1,2,3
Guts Ishimatsu
Hector Thompson
Ken Buchanan
Hiroshi Kobayashi
Ernesto Marcel
Benny Huertas
Ray Lampkin
Edwin Viruet
Lou Bizzarro
Vilomar Fernandez
Rojas
Edwin Viruet 2
Adolfo Viruet

That's pretty much most of the available footage of a prime Duran so you've see as much as anybody.

Also i dont think i need to have been of that era to know whom at that time was considered a great fighter (elite) if they were of the stature (a) i would know who they are (b) their record would confirm that.

I don't think you need to have been of that era either: While it may give some insight I wouldn't consider it essential by any means. For most fans, I would point out, looking at respective resumes can make a difference as to whether an opponent had stature or not based on how recent a fighter is simply because those opponents would be more familier to a typical fan. Buddy McGirt we know has statue because he was a world-class fighter within recent memory. But would a typical fan checking Whitaker's resume 30 years from now know that? Or would McGirt be just another opponent?

When i look at Duran's record at LW it does not jump out at me and say "WOW"

For me, DeJesus does and so do the Viruets. So do a number of fighters off Whitaker's resume. But will those same names make a fan say "wow" 30 years from now? It's unlikely fans will even know who those fighters are.

The fact that his reign was long is impressive but i dont see that many great names on there. Where are the Sanchez's, Arguello's?

Sanchez never fought outside of Featherweight and Arguello had just moved up at the same time Duran started to go after the Welters.

i know guys like Fernandez, Viruet are respectable wins/fighters, they both held wins over Escalera, Arguello, but his resume seems to be solid rather than spectacular, its not so much his career at LW that im skeptical of its more a culmination of a him having a solid LW career albeit not spectacular

Well, you could go over Whitaker's resume and come to the same conclusion though. Now, I don't think it's an accurate conclusion to be made about Pernell, I'm just saying the case can be made.

and losing fights to guys who were less than stellar, now im not gonna crucify him for that because i think there were legit reasons for his losses to Hearns, Sims, Leonard, Laing, Benitez but by the same token im not going to put him as an ATG(4)

Past-prime losses though, which I don't hold against a fighter unless his opponent was past-prime as well. That's why I don't hold the Trinidad fight against Whitaker, or give Felix any major kudos for it: Pernell was well over the hill for that fight.

if you get my drift, lets for arguments sake he does not beat Leonard, how far does he fall from (4) ATG status ? id say pretty significantly, that there says it all to me about how exaggerated his place is as a(4) ATG

Considering Duran was just past his best and not at his best weight then he would still get accolades for moving up and giving the Welterweight (himself a top-tier ATG) one hell of a war even in a losing effort.

Poet

[Obama]

Duran is top 20 ATG material at best. People rating him in the top 10 are definitely over rating him. Same goes for Sugar Ray Leonard, and Muhammad Ali.

No one else commonly thrown into top 10 ATG lists unreasonably comes to mind. RJJ used to, but that changed after he got KTFO twice back to back. Mayweather might end up there shortly, and he'll be another guy that doesn't deserve it. Unless his next 4 wins are over the winner of Pac/Cotto, winner of Mosley/Berto, Paul Williams, and some MW Champion provided Williams isn't one, Mayweather won't deserve it.

[Dynamite Kid]

That's pretty much most of the available footage of a prime Duran so you've see as much as anybody.




I don't think you need to have been of that era either: While it may give some insight I wouldn't consider it essential by any means. For most fans, I would point out, looking at respective resumes can make a difference as to whether an opponent had stature or not based on how recent a fighter is simply because those opponents would be more familier to a typical fan. Buddy McGirt we know has statue because he was a world-class fighter within recent memory. But would a typical fan checking Whitaker's resume 30 years from now know that? Or would McGirt be just another opponent?




For me, DeJesus does and so do the Viruets. So do a number of fighters off Whitaker's resume. But will those same names make a fan say "wow" 30 years from now? It's unlikely fans will even know who those fighters are.




Sanchez never fought outside of Featherweight and Arguello had just moved up at the same time Duran started to go after the Welters.




Well, you could go over Whitaker's resume and come to the same conclusion though. Now, I don't think it's an accurate conclusion to be made about Pernell, I'm just saying the case can be made.




Past-prime losses though, which I don't hold against a fighter unless his opponent was past-prime as well. That's why I don't hold the Trinidad fight against Whitaker, or give Felix any major kudos for it: Pernell was well over the hill for that fight.




Considering Duran was just past his best and not at his best weight then he would still get accolades for moving up and giving the Welterweight (himself a top-tier ATG) one hell of a war even in a losing effort.

Poet

Good post, some fair points.

I respect Duran a lot and dont get me wrong im not one of those trolls that thinks he never beat anybody at LW and is overrated because of his past prime losses, with me its more of a in the middle type of stand point.

I see the respective parties arguing about Duran's career and i can see validity to both sides of the argument but each of those parties cannot form a logical stand point to run with. The idiots will look at the "L" column and think the obvious, whilst the people arguing against them for Duran go over the top by claiming he is not only an ATG, but he is actually a number 4 ATG, its from one extreme to another imo. Im not saying you are either of them Poet, but that is the general consensus i get when talking about Duran's career, you either put him up to far or to low.

[Dynamite Kid]

Duran is top 20 ATG material at best. People rating him in the top 10 are definitely over rating him. Same goes for Sugar Ray Leonard, and Muhammad Ali.

No one else commonly thrown into top 10 ATG lists unreasonably comes to mind. RJJ used to, but that changed after he got KTFO twice back to back. Mayweather might end up there shortly, and he'll be another guy that doesn't deserve it. Unless his next 4 wins are over the winner of Pac/Cotto, winner of Mosley/Berto, Paul Williams, and some MW Champion provided Williams isn't one, Mayweather won't deserve it.

I agree with most of this, but *****............didn't you once say Mike Tyson was a top 10 ATG? i might be wrong there and you might have said he was a top 10 HW ATG, which one was it, can you remember ?

I cant remember myself exactly what it was you said, thats why im asking.

[Obama]

I agree with most of this, but *****............didn't you once say Mike Tyson was a top 10 ATG? i might be wrong there and you might have said he was a top 10 HW ATG, which one was it, can you remember ?

I cant remember myself exactly what it was you said, thats why im asking.

Top 10 Heavyweight. Top 50 p4p, maybe.

[Dynamite Kid]

Top 10 Heavyweight. Top 50 p4p, maybe.

Phew! thats cool then

[GJC]

Hagler because when i watch Hagler what i see is a methodical fighter with good countering skills albeit not spectacular, and a guy who had pretty average hand & foot speed, its no surprise to me that Duran, Leonard were able to give him so much trouble with their Boxing skills, because like i said whist Hagler was a competent Boxer, he was not an exceptional one, what Hagler did have going for him was ..........he was a punishing puncher, had good stamina, iron jaw, heart, good countering skills albeit not spectacular as i mentioned.

I'm reminded of the Fred Astaire quote, balding can't act can dance a bit
Fair to say Hagler at his best didn't have the wow factor but a great fighter maybe not the best at any aspect but pretty solid all round.

Duran just purely on the fact some people rank him waay to high on their ATG lists.
Duran is an ATG but he is not a (4) ATG like some laughable have him as.

Oooo thats fighting talk
Lists are always going to cause arguments, hopefully reasoned intelligant ones. I rate Duran very highly, i'd have to figure out where but at his best certainly top 10 for me. Good knowledgable poster such as yourself and few other likely lads could I'm sure certainly make a convincing case for ten other fighters that should go above him. On the other hand I'm immodest enough to think that I might make a good couple of holes in a couple of fighters that you rate above him. Thats the beauty of lists and opinions and when a group of good posters get together the joy of these forums for me.

[GJC]

Duran is top 20 ATG material at best. People rating him in the top 10 are definitely over rating him.

Always respect your opinions ***** and agreed with your quote on Castro

He was much better than Baldo and Hamsho. Beating Sweet Reggie and Action Jackson is serious business.

So my question would be name me 10/20 fighters that could beat a world class fighter who was still fairly prime at the age of 46. Factor in they were 20odd years past their prime and 5 weight divisions above their best weight?
Langford could do it after that its a struggle?

[Dynamite Kid]

I'm reminded of the Fred Astaire quote, balding can't act can dance a bit
Fair to say Hagler at his best didn't have the wow factor but a great fighter maybe not the best at any aspect but pretty solid all round.


Oooo thats fighting talk
Lists are always going to cause arguments, hopefully reasoned intelligant ones. I rate Duran very highly, i'd have to figure out where but at his best certainly top 10 for me. Good knowledgable poster such as yourself and few other likely lads could I'm sure certainly make a convincing case for ten other fighters that should go above him. On the other hand I'm immodest enough to think that I might make a good couple of holes in a couple of fighters that you rate above him. Thats the beauty of lists and opinions and when a group of good posters get together the joy of these forums for me.

All respects to you GJC your a good guy. I have no problem if someone wants to put him in their top 10 its just i think top 4 is a bit excessive, not that anyone needs my permission to do so lol.

The irony is i dont even concern myself with ATG lists. I have never made one and have always been of the opinion, whats the point? they cause too much bickering etc.

[GJC]

All respects to you GJC your a good guy. I have no problem if someone wants to put him in their top 10 its just i think top 4 is a bit excessive, not that anyone needs my permission to do so lol.

The irony is i dont even concern myself with ATG lists. I have never made one and have always been of the opinion, whats the point? they cause too much bickering etc.

I knocked up a top 20 pfp list recently but totally copped out and put them in alphabetical order I also knocked out the HW's al la Poet so I could squeeze another couple of fighters in.
You're right re the bickering it does exasperate me that some get so nasty and disrespectful of anothers views. I will have a dig at someone who re-writes history like Terrell gave Ali a hard fight or says Frazier couldn't punch but as to someone's opinion that A is better than B
I might not agree but im always interested to hear others opinions im not too old to learn something