Sonny Liston Training for Gerhard Zech

[Ivich]

Sonny Liston in Training Camp for German Champ Gerhard Zech (ca. 1.7.1966) - YouTube

[kara]

Good find.

[tonysoprano]

Who’s he sparring, dude his half his size. That guy was brave.

[billeau2]

Interesting thing about Sonny, he might have been the best finisher at heavyweight, certainly on the short list... But he did not cut the ring down. He would get in front of you and use his reach and footwork. You see it in the sparring in this film, and in his fights... Like a Thai boxer in and out off the main fighting line, the fastest way to get from point A to point B.

It gets better... Foreman was mentored a great deal by Liston and Foreman cuts the ring down consistently, in excellent fashion. Two great fighters, one can see a lot of Liston on Foreman, but there was a fundamental difference in their approach to setting up their attack.

To get a sense of the difference, imagine someone sparring with you and always in front of you, whatever direction you try to go, they are there in your face. Now imagine, as you are sparring someone walking across, parallel to your front, attacking and again, walking across, as you lose space to move.

[Ivich]

Interesting thing about Sonny, he might have been the best finisher at heavyweight, certainly on the short list... But he did not cut the ring down. He would get in front of you and use his reach and footwork. You see it in the sparring in this film, and in his fights... Like a Thai boxer in and out off the main fighting line, the fastest way to get from point A to point B.

It gets better... Foreman was mentored a great deal by Liston and Foreman cuts the ring down consistently, in excellent fashion. Two great fighters, one can see a lot of Liston on Foreman, but there was a fundamental difference in their approach to setting up their attack.

To get a sense of the difference, imagine someone sparring with you and always in front of you, whatever direction you try to go, they are there in your face. Now imagine, as you are sparring someone walking across, parallel to your front, attacking and again, walking across, as you lose space to move.

Archie Moore remarked that Liston never learned to cut off the ring.

[billeau2]

Archie Moore remarked that Liston never learned to cut off the ring.

Thats interesting! Of course Moore was another fighter that mentored and worked with Foreman... that would explain a lot. As far as on a technical level it is an interesting debate as to whether what Liston did was inferior. He was such an incredible finisher, but in traditional boxing methodology cutting the ring is considered a primary skill.

It gets more puzzling because Liston did not have very quick feet, not a plodder by any means, but a fighter like Pacman came in so fast on that primary fighting line, and where an argument could be made, that Manny eclipsed the need to stalk his opponent, would not necessarily apply to Liston. Also, some modern styles like what Dwyer calls "ambush predator" where a fighter like David Haye or Wilder (martinez was the first I saw use this) just sits far and away from the opponent and comes roaring in when they want to attack, does not necessarily rely on taking real estate away, but also requires fast feet...

But Sonny was different. He had reach that helped him get there, and he had an excellent sense of foot to hand coordination. Liston mastered a principle of timing one sees in some boxing styles. The idea is, when trying to be fast and all, how does a fighter get their weight into their shots? the most power comes when the foot hits the ground simultaneously when the punch hits the target. Liston had great coordination, his foot was almost always near absolute maximum timing with his shots. All the speed in the world does not produce much results if the body is not behind the blows.

I cannot say I know how Liston managed it, I am still looking at his technical approach. It certainly seems easier to cut across my front at a parallel line to keep me retreating, rather than setting in front of me and using a basic one-two step. But again, Liston had extraordinary reach and coordination and that might have been the devil in the details.