Turn of the century tournament of all time contenders. 1890- 1902

[Ivich]

I learned that a brick wall helped Godfrey knock Martin out! The ring was 3 sides of ropes and a brick wall that Martin was knocked back and slammed his head into. A tough break!.

Martin like Godfrey was another fight that John L Sullivan missed out on.

Sullivan did not miss out on Denver Ed Martin.Martin did not turn pro till1899.
You are confusing him with Denver Ed Smith.

[Dr. Z]

Tomorrow the polls close on Rhulin vs Smith. Up next is a very even type of match featuring the big punching Pat Killen vs. the all around talent of Hank Griffin. I known something on Griffin as he was 1-0-2 vs ( One of the draws vs. Johnson is really a win ) and his over all record is very good.

Johnson is from Denver and working as Kid Carter's spar-mate. According to the San Francisco Call, while the referee called it a draw, "...Griffin did most of the leading and seemed to be the cleverer of the two..

Other famous wins include Jack Munroe, Frank Childs , and Harris " the black pearl " Martin.

Killen is a bit of a mystery though his record stands at 54 -2 3 ( 51 Ko's! ) with both losses being very suspect as he was drunk and had B()ll &hit DQ loss when he was on his way to finishing Thompson. Otherwise this KO puncher ( and they were rare back then ) is one of boxings all time could have beens.

Neither man was selected as a title opponent of Sullivan but each man is getting their chance here. His best in is over a 20-0-8 Cardiff who knocked out cold.

"Cardiff was out for 16 seconds before he regained his feet." Both men wore two ounce gloves. Weights according to St Paul Daily Globeorrectly listed in previous records as KO 5. Cardiff was knocked out cold by a Killen right hand in the fourth round according to Minneapolis Evening.

Cardiff fought and draw with John L Sullivan, but the call was a very poor decision! Sullivan blames his perforce on an injured arm, but still got a 4 leaf clover of decision in the draw. Ah the luck of the Irish they say.

Attendance: 10, 000 (Minneapolis Journal 1-19-1887) According to the St Paul Daily Globe, Cardiff did most of the fighting and should have received the decision.

This action starts at high noon EST on Saturday. Stand rules apply and no guns or spike shoes will be allowed. Women are allowed as spectators.

[Marchegiano]

I'm going to take drunky Pat.

The meat of both their careers seems to be inexperienced fighters. Killen has the higher KO ratio. I think a good man mostly KOs debuts.

That said, this is a really difficult pick and I don't feel too confident. I think Hank does have the better resume it's just that neither of them have a very stand-out showing and so the resume wins, draws, or even doing well enough to take Jeff to 17 before losing, doesn't mean much. In my opinion. I took their records as a whole rather than focusing on something like is a win over a green Johnson better than a KO over Cardiff. Because the truth is none of what either man did spells greatness as far as I am concerned.

On the whole, I think Pat's record is more impressive because he's knocking out debuts while Hank's out pointing them.

Pat's the slightly bigger man and the heavier hitter so I'm going to go with a mid-rounds KO in Pat's favor, say 6 or 7.


Not an easy match up to decide.




Question -

Are we meant to go prime-to-prime regardless of if their prime was actually the 1880s? 1890s Pat is showing up to fights drunk and I don't think a drunk Killen beats a sober Griffin, but 1880s I think probably gets the KO.

[Dr. Z]

I'm going to take drunky Pat.

The meat of both their careers seems to be inexperienced fighters. Killen has the higher KO ratio. I think a good man mostly KOs debuts.

That said, this is a really difficult pick and I don't feel too confident. I think Hank does have the better resume it's just that neither of them have a very stand-out showing and so the resume wins, draws, or even doing well enough to take Jeff to 17 before losing, doesn't mean much. In my opinion. I took their records as a whole rather than focusing on something like is a win over a green Johnson better than a KO over Cardiff. Because the truth is none of what either man did spells greatness as far as I am concerned.

On the whole, I think Pat's record is more impressive because he's knocking out debuts while Hank's out pointing them.

Pat's the slightly bigger man and the heavier hitter so I'm going to go with a mid-rounds KO in Pat's favor, say 6 or 7.


Not an easy match up to decide.




Question -

Are we meant to go prime-to-prime regardless of if their prime was actually the 1880s? 1890s Pat is showing up to fights drunk and I don't think a drunk Killen beats a sober Griffin, but 1880s I think probably gets the KO.

No, it isn't an easy match to decide. I'm still undecided! Hank Griffin beat Jack Johnson in 1901 who had 25 confirmed boxing matches under his belt, and untold amount of battle royals. He was not green. Records show he was boxing since 1894! He had been a pro for at least six years.

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/jjohn.htm

Yes, we are picking men at their best.

[Marchegiano]

No, it isn't an easy match to decide. I'm still undecided! Hank Griffin beat Jack Johnson in 1901 who had 25 confirmed boxing matches under his belt, and untold amount of battle royals. He was not green. Records show he was boxing since 1894! He had been a pro for at least six years.

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/jjohn.htm

Yes, we are picking men at their best.

My mistake, thanks for correcting me.

[Dr. Z]

I will give the Griffin vs. Killen fight until Wednesday to vote on. I'm picking Killen to win a come from behind late KO, but really I don't know much about Killen other than his power and record which is very good! I think boxing missed out on a match between him and John L Sullivan in the 1880's. That one could have been made and IMO had the fight taken place would rate a top 3 gloved Sullivan opponent.

[Dr. Z]

Any more picks?

[mattdonnellon]

I'm travelling at the moment so not much time.I ignored Killen v Griffin in the tourney because I dont consider Pat an 90's fighter, Kilrain has more claim! I do think he was better than Hank who's record looks better in hindsight, he maybe had a draw with a green Childs, lost important fights to Bob Jones and Frank Russle, couldnt beat the average Kennedy, neither world beaters. Ed Martin crushed him and his best performances seem to be the fights with Johnson, who, whatever the arguments as to how green he was, simply wasn't that good at that point.
Now I like Dan Creedon, underrated in my view, but Sailor Tom is all wrong for him, ko win for Sharkey.

[Dr. Z]

Killen wins!

Up next is Tom Sharkey vs Dan Creendon. I agree with Matt. Shakey via KO's Creedon in the early rounds.

[Marchegiano]

Story teller or not Tom Sharkey's one of the most dangerous men the sport's ever seen. Crazy he was never a legitimate champion. I'll take the Sharkman as well, KO.