Heavyweight Lineal Assist

[Ben Bolt]

Would everyone be satisfied with the following list for lineal heavyweight champions up to and including Clay regains from Spinks?

So the rest of the above list should read:

Lineal it is. The true world heavyweight champions.
(Along with the downside, that some formidable fighters never received the opportunity
to fight for the true title.)

Sullivan
Corbett
Fitzsimmons
Jefferies
Hart
Burns
Johnson
Willard
Dempsey
Tunney
Schmeling
Sharkey
Carnera
Baer
Braddock
Louis
Charles
Walcott
Marciano
Patterson
Johansson
Patterson
Liston
Ali
Frazier
Foreman
Ali
L Spinks
Ali
Holmes
M Spinks
Tyson
Douglas
Holyfield
Bowe
Holyfield
Moorer
Foreman
Briggs
Lewis
Rahman
Lewis
Wald
Fury

[The Old LefHook]

Briggs beats Foreman, then loses to Lewis.

Wald is the most questionable entry since Tommy Burns. Much like Burns he earns the title through multiple defenses that eventually earns him recognition from the crowd. A weak claim no doubt but like Tommy Burns at least the recognition was earned in the ring and not merely assigned.

Re Fury: I don't agree. I am not saying that Fury deserves the recognition but he's got it already and no matter what next week brings he will be remembered as a champion and not merely a belt holder.

Sometimes the fight game is just plain unfair. Better fighters sometime never get their opportunity while others get recognition they really don't deserve.

P.S. Oliver McCall is another enigma I am ambivalent about. Lewis was not yet undisputed but would be soon be the unquestioned champion. I wonder how it would have played out if McCall had beat up a few 'bums' (defenses) before losing his 'title' back to Lewis?

Certainly ain't no science here.

What is history, but lies agreed upon.

Was Vlad obviously the the best heavyweight during his tenure, or some part of it? Isn't that enough? It is for me.

Here is another question for the ferrets. Has there been a lineal heavyweight champion who was obviously not the best champion at the time and another was generally recognized over him? I figure someone on here will remember or flat know.

I still will not include Fury until his career is over.

[Willow The Wisp]

NOT acceptable to me.
Using your "criteria" the list should read.
SULLIVAN
CORBETT
FITZSIMMONS
JEFFRIES
HART
BRUSSO
JOHNSON
WILLARD
DEMPSEY
TUNNEY
SCHMELING
ZUKAUSKAS
CARNERA
BAER
BRADDOCK
BARROW
CHARLES
CREAM
MARCHEGIANO
PATTERSON
JOHANSSON
PATTERSON
LISTON
CLAY
FRAZIER
FOREMAN
CLAY
SPINKS L
CLAY

IF YOU HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH NOAH BRUSSO CHANGING HIS NAME TO
TOMMY BURNS.

JOSEPH ZUKAUSKAS TO JACK SHARKEY

JOSEPH BARROW TO JOE LOUIS

ARNOLD CREAM TO JOE WALCOTT.

ROCCO MARCHEGIANO TO ROCKY MARCIANO.

WHY WOULD YOU NOT ACCEPT CASSIUS CLAY'S RIGHT TO CHANGE HIS NAME TO
MUHAMMAD ALI?

PLEASE EXPLAIN YOUR LOGIC?

Well done buddy.

[The Old LefHook]

Actually, Fury does not need to retire. It will be enough for his current reign to end one way or another. My chart is all about reigns and their lengths. We do not add them together here.

[crold1]

Yes this worked fine for Sharkey-Schmeling and Patterson-Moore but that was before the alphabet boys mucked it all up.

So who had Wald ranked #1? - Not meant to challenge your point but you can see that by the time of Wald things had gotten messy. Was it The Ring or were both fighters #1 and #3 on all the scantioning bodies lists?

Also in regards to Hart, I guess one could argue that it was Jeffries who made the call as to who was #1 and #2. Certainly not and argument i want to defend.

Re Fury: I would argue that you are correct regarding his on again off again on again behavior has diminished his status not to mention his 'one' defense but three things worked to his favor:

the media loves his silliness; AJ was exposed by Ruiz; and his fights are more exciting than AJ's.

Not that these are the correct reasons to choose a champion but sometimes they are the reasons we do.

Since you asked, here's my two cents for what they're worth (probably about two cents):

On the Wlad point: Ring (and me at this site) recognized Wlad-Chagaev. It was a clear 1-3 but 1 had beaten so much of the top ten (something Vitali never did much of). That said, it's not a clean start point and worth dispute. Wlad was still lineal clear by the end. When he beat Povetkin, they were everyone's top two heavyweights in the world by way of Vitali (though still WBC) being inactive for over a year by then and ultimately retiring. Wlad-Chagaev or Wlad-Povetkin in 2013. Whichever one you prefer, ends the same place. Stiverne didn't win the WBC until 2014 and really, what did that mean? He beat a Chris Arreola who never beat serious contender in his whole career? To pretend that mattered is far too much fealty to sanctioning bodies. Wlad was the heavyweight champ without legitimate dispute from Povetkin until Fury beat him.

As to Fury, he never really retired. I know this is a bone of contention but mixed messages and a layoff aren't retirement. He said he did and then took it right back; vacated titles but didn't actually say he retired. etc. I think it's all still one reign but he makes it hard on people who want some sense of order. Even now, he tells Ring he's vacating, they and TBRB take him at his word despite never vacating the WBC, and then he's back negotiating fights. Fury is the heavyweight champion right now. Usyk is his number one contender. Hope they fight next year.

[QueensburyRules]

Since you asked, here's my two cents for what they're worth (probably about two cents):

On the Wlad point: Ring (and me at this site) recognized Wlad-Chagaev. It was a clear 1-3 but 1 had beaten so much of the top ten (something Vitali never did much of). That said, it's not a clean start point and worth dispute. Wlad was still lineal clear by the end. When he beat Povetkin, they were everyone's top two heavyweights in the world by way of Vitali (though still WBC) being inactive for over a year by then and ultimately retiring. Wlad-Chagaev or Wlad-Povetkin in 2013. Whichever one you prefer, ends the same place. Stiverne didn't win the WBC until 2014 and really, what did that mean? He beat a Chris Arreola who never beat serious contender in his whole career? To pretend that mattered is far too much fealty to sanctioning bodies. Wlad was the heavyweight champ without legitimate dispute from Povetkin until Fury beat him.

As to Fury, he never really retired. I know this is a bone of contention but mixed messages and a layoff aren't retirement. He said he did and then took it right back; vacated titles but didn't actually say he retired. etc. I think it's all still one reign but he makes it hard on people who want some sense of order. Even now, he tells Ring he's vacating, they and TBRB take him at his word despite never vacating the WBC, and then he's back negotiating fights. Fury is the heavyweight champion right now. Usyk is his number one contender. Hope they fight next year.

- - Cliff, near as I can tell you don't really work for Ring and seem to have been a BS staple forever, so how can you ignore Fury's 3 year ring absence, voraciously recorded for public consumption along with his showy drug ban for steroids notched in his first Wlad fight?

Ring Annual Ratings feature Fury as Ring Champ (that many have used to replace the outdates lineal nonsense) for 6 years, and in that 6 years he's had 2 defenses, both back to back recently.

When AJ fought Parker, they were ranked 1 and 3, and Ring rules clearly state when a fight with #2 cannot be made with #1, then #3 shall suffice for the Ring belt. Wilder turned record purses vs AJ, as big a duck as ever recorded in shady boxing history and been repeated several times since.

If you try to defend that and Fury, well, it won't make any difference since boxing has a much credibility as a fleet of used car salesmen in Somali these days.

Rock & Hard Place, Cliff...

[crold1]

- - Cliff, near as I can tell you don't really work for Ring and seem to have been a BS staple forever, so how can you ignore Fury's 3 year ring absence, voraciously recorded for public consumption along with his showy drug ban for steroids notched in his first Wlad fight?

Ring Annual Ratings feature Fury as Ring Champ (that many have used to replace the outdates lineal nonsense) for 6 years, and in that 6 years he's had 2 defenses, both back to back recently.

When AJ fought Parker, they were ranked 1 and 3, and Ring rules clearly state when a fight with Forum cannot be made with #1, then Blogs shall suffice for the Ring belt. Wilder turned record purses vs AJ, as big a duck as ever recorded in shady boxing history and been repeated several times since.

If you try to defend that and Fury, well, it won't make any difference since boxing has a much credibility as a fleet of used car salesmen in Somali these days.

Rock & Hard Place, Cliff...

I don't work for Ring. I freelance with them and occasionally some other places but this is my boxing home.

As to Fury, like I laid out above, he never really retired. Even being out 2 1/2 years. That's all that mattered to me. Same reason I always called Rigondeaux lineal at 122 for a bit even when he stopped fighting there because his team went out of their way to say he was. Fury is the man who beat the man and if it was okay for Dempsey, we'll all live. Hope he and Usyk face off next year to clear this up for good. Agree boxing is just such a mess.

That last line made me laugh.

[QueensburyRules]

I don't work for Ring. I freelance with them and occasionally some other places but this is my boxing home.

As to Fury, like I laid out above, he never really retired. Even being out 2 1/2 years. That's all that mattered to me. Same reason I always called Rigondeaux lineal at 122 for a bit even when he stopped fighting there because his team went out of their way to say he was. Fury is the man who beat the man and if it was okay for Dempsey, we'll all live. Hope he and Usyk face off next year to clear this up for good. Agree boxing is just such a mess.

That last line made me laugh.

- - Dempsey was cutting ties with Kearns who had the apparent legal authority to make Jack's financial living hell. He couldn't fight without his purse being seized, so he went Hollywood with his new wife whom Kearns despised for work and probably ran his Hollywood earnings through her as his manager to escape Kearns. He also took his friend and sparmate Big Bill Tate so he could train for the Wills fights that never came off in part to Kearns.

All Fury did for years was expand on his illicit drug use in the Wlad fight, and need I quote Ring's own rules regarding drug use and rankings? Weren't Ring the same guys supporting the drug addled history of the Mayweather family libeling Manny while cleaning up boxing with Olympic drug testing that has never once been implemented? And then they had to pay an undisclosed civil settlement to Manny to put a nail in their reputations not to mention further transgressions?

Just to be clear, Fury 6 years the Ring Champ, one drug suspension, with his only two title defenses back to back at that tail end where he knocked out the guy he knocked out for the WBC title previously, the same guy, Wilder, who ducked multiple undefeated Ring Home AJ legacy fights, and then he knocks out Whyte, the guy the 40 yr old Povetkin in his last gasp put down for a 50 count and whom AJ had disposed of quite easily years before.

I promise you this, Cliff, future historians will not be so kind as you regarding Ring Legacy during this time frame. It's too open and shut, cut and dried, a gimme Ring FAIL, and so sadly, it didn't need to be this way...R.I.P...

[crold1]

- - Dempsey was cutting ties with Kearns who had the apparent legal authority to make Jack's financial living hell. He couldn't fight without his purse being seized, so he went Hollywood with his new wife whom Kearns despised for work and probably ran his Hollywood earnings through her as his manager to escape Kearns. He also took his friend and sparmate Big Bill Tate so he could train for the Wills fights that never came off in part to Kearns.

All Fury did for years was expand on his illicit drug use in the Wlad fight, and need I quote Ring's own rules regarding drug use and rankings? Weren't Ring the same guys supporting the drug addled history of the Mayweather family libeling Manny while cleaning up boxing with Olympic drug testing that has never once been implemented? And then they had to pay an undisclosed civil settlement to Manny to put a nail in their reputations not to mention further transgressions?

Just to be clear, Fury 6 years the Ring Champ, one drug suspension, with his only two title defenses back to back at that tail end where he knocked out the guy he knocked out for the WBC title previously, the same guy, Wilder, who ducked multiple undefeated Ring Home AJ legacy fights, and then he knocks out Whyte, the guy the 40 yr old Povetkin in his last gasp put down for a 50 count and whom AJ had disposed of quite easily years before.

I promise you this, Cliff, future historians will not be so kind as you regarding Ring Legacy during this time frame. It's too open and shut, cut and dried, a gimme Ring FAIL, and so sadly, it didn't need to be this way...R.I.P...

Not to correct you but he hasn't been Ring champ for six years. Some lineal heads (me here at BSCene, linealboxingchampion.com) have recognized all six years but not Ring or TBRB. He is a two-time Ring champ and currently they recognize Usyk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...orld_champions As to his failed drug test, that wasn't related to the first Klitschko fight. Fury tested for coke before they could have a rematch but the backdated PED suspension was related to Fury's fight with Christian Hammer. https://inews.co.uk/sport/boxing/tys...-doping-408719

[QueensburyRules]

Not to correct you but he hasn't been Ring champ for six years. Some lineal heads (me here at BSCene, linealboxingchampion.com) have recognized all six years but not Ring or TBRB. He is a two-time Ring champ and currently they recognize Usyk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...orld_champions As to his failed drug test, that wasn't related to the first Klitschko fight. Fury tested for coke before they could have a rematch but the backdated PED suspension was related to Fury's fight with Christian Hammer. https://inews.co.uk/sport/boxing/tys...-doping-408719

- - There are 8 long years with Fury booking ending 3+3 years of Ring Champ with two vacant years in between them.

To expand the net Ring Belt record, during that 8 year period, they've anointed Fury to their Ring Belt for 6 of those Annual Ratings, and they have 2 title defenses of their reduced value Ring belt with the two biggest AJ duckers fighting each other at the tail end of that 8 years, and then last but not least, the Ring champ was fighting a guy AJ disposed easily years ago who also ducked a career purse vs AJ in his American debut, you know, the one where of all the top ranked fighters offered record purses to face AJ, yet only Fat Andy was willing to man up to the scratch line.

As to UKAD, aka bedtime buddies with BBBc, all I know is the steroid result came out with Fury was training for the Wlad rematch. Yeah, and coke too. Never heard of the Hammer result, but no matter the UKAD, BBBc, or Ring, we have high up peoples overseeing boxing, and reporting and sanctioning boxing(Ring and their Belt) at what could only qualify at grade 4th grade school level, half the reason fans flocked to UFC.

Not to mention comparing Dempsey to Fury. Nobody in Dempsey's era turns down record purses to make shams of themselves like Fury and his defenses.

And what's MTK role in all this sham? Last I heared, Fury and Warren are banned in America for good reason, yet another stain affixed permanently to Ring.