Leotis Martin

[Benncollinsaad]

You've said it before.

If Frazier was protected then why did he take on Oscar Bonavena in his 12th fight, Eddie Machen in his 13th and Doug Jones in his 14th? Why would he give Bonavena a rematch and fight the sharp-punching Jimmy Ellis?

I'm afraid Martin was never in the position to be avoided.

Frazier never dogged Futch's name through dirt. It's a myth. Joe never forgiving Futch for not letting him go out for the 15th is just that, a myth. Aren't you the one who always criticizes people for believing in myths?

He likes to question the greatness of the greats. Ungrateful job.

[BigMacFoster]

You've said it before.

If Frazier was protected then why did he take on Oscar Bonavena in his 12th fight, Eddie Machen in his 13th and Doug Jones in his 14th? Why would he give Bonavena a rematch and fight the sharp-punching Jimmy Ellis?

I'm afraid Martin was never in the position to be avoided.

Frazier never dogged Futch's name through dirt. It's a myth. Joe never forgiving Futch for not letting him go out for the 15th is just that, a myth. Aren't you the one who always criticizes people for believing in myths?

Did you know that bonavena was actually the underdog during their first fight?

Pretty amazing really considering Ringo's experience.

I can't explain Durham's matchmaking,Only Yank Durham knew what he was doing,Obviously he saw something in Leotis Martin that the general public didn't.He knew Leotis Martin better than most in the game

Eddie futch I believe was very much responsible for making the Machen fight and Machen was a good name but a faded fighter and before you point out that he beat Jerry Quarry.

Quarry in those days was pretty mediocre,Compared to what he later became during the late 1960's-early 1970's,He had struggled against a decent experienced opponent in Tony Alongi twice already.Doug Jones too was a very much faded fighter.


The myth was created by frazier himself.I used to believe it until I heard what the widow of Eddie futch had to say on that matter.

"It's been reported that Joe never forgave Eddie for throwing in the towel after the 14th round but that isn't true. Joe visited us here at home many times and came to Eddie's memorial service at Caesar's Palace in 2001. Being a corner man is a tough job and Eddie had seen too many boxers die during his (many)years as a Trainer. Boxing is not a game; it's Life and death! So when Joe's vision was starting to close in the 12 and 13th round, it was then Eddie had to start thinking about Joe's safety. It was a hard decision but the right one!"

Eva Futch

He likes to question the greatness of the greats. Ungrateful job.

To question the greatness of a great,Wouldn't I have to question the greatness of an actual.......um great?

[GJC]

I saw signs of him slowing down. The rumour has it that he didn't prepare at all for the second Patterson fight and not much more for the Ali fight.

Either way he was washed up by the time he fought Martin. The man was still a force but he tired badly in the later rounds. Against Henry Clark, a top 10 rated contender at the time, he showed signs of tiring but was able to put together combinations to stop Clark. Against Martin, whom Clark had actually beaten, he had to pay for it.

Liston post Ali was probably akin to Tyson post the 2nd Holyfield loss. Could still take the 2nd level opposition out and look impressive doing so but declining as a fighter.

[TheGreatA]

Did you know that bonavena was actually the underdog during their first fight?

Pretty amazing really considering Ringo's experience.

Frazier was the big prospect but having seen Bonavena fight Chuvalo (which was the fight before he faced Frazier), I certainly wouldn't have put Frazier anywhere near Bonavena until atleast 20+ fight pro experience. Bonavena handled pressure fighters very well, arguably knocking Chuvalo down, although he was made to look crude by good boxers.

I can't explain Durham's matchmaking,Only Yank Durham knew what he was doing,Obviously he saw something in Leotis Martin that the general public didn't.He knew Leotis Martin better than most in the game

Martin I think had somewhat of a reputation as a sparring partner, he had actually worked for Liston previous to their actual fight which might explain why he wasn't intimidated in the least, but he wasn't really putting it all together in the professional ring until the Liston fight which unfortunately ended his career.

He would lose a big fight, win a big fight, lose a big fight, win a big fight and so on. I can't see him ever being considered for Frazier as an opponent until Martin KO'd Liston. Then again he was another Philadelphia fighter and it could have been somewhat big with two hometown fighters fighting each other.

Eddie futch I believe was very much responsible for making the Machen fight and Machen was a good name but a faded fighter and before you point out that he beat Jerry Quarry.

Quarry in those days was pretty mediocre,Compared to what he later became during the late 1960's-early 1970's,He had struggled against a decent experienced opponent in Tony Alongi twice already.Doug Jones too was a very much faded fighter.

Machen was faded without a doubt but he was very, very game against Frazier. In the end he was the "right" fight for Frazier but considering how he had exposed a couple of prospects in his previous fights and how much experience he had, Machen certainly wouldn't be the first opponent to come to my mind that I'd put against a rising 10 fight prospect.

Quarry was raw at that point of his career but he still looked fairly good in some of the early fights that I've seen of him.

The myth was created by frazier himself.I used to believe it until I heard what the widow of Eddie futch had to say on that matter.

"It's been reported that Joe never forgave Eddie for throwing in the towel after the 14th round but that isn't true. Joe visited us here at home many times and came to Eddie's memorial service at Caesar's Palace in 2001. Being a corner man is a tough job and Eddie had seen too many boxers die during his (many)years as a Trainer. Boxing is not a game; it's Life and death! So when Joe's vision was starting to close in the 12 and 13th round, it was then Eddie had to start thinking about Joe's safety. It was a hard decision but the right one!"

Eva Futch

I also read an interview in which Frazier said that he respected Futch's decision.

[Benncollinsaad]

I hate Eddie Machen. That smug ***.

[TheGreatA]

I hate Eddie Machen. That smug ***.

He was a bit crazy but not as crazy as Cleveland Williams.

[Obama]

I hate Eddie Machen. That smug ***.

Don't hate, appreciate.

Both Ingemar Johansson and Floyd Patterson lucked out on 9/14/58. Ingy won the lottery, and Patterson got to breathe a sigh of relief of never having to face a prime Eddie Machen. Had things been different, the title progression would have happened the right way:

Patterson -> Machen -> Folley -> Liston

Instead we end up with flukes and ducks exchanging belts until Liston shows up, who had to wait so long for the title that after he won it he lost all hunger in the sport.

[Benncollinsaad]

Don't hate, appreciate.

Both Ingemar Johansson and Floyd Patterson lucked out on 9/14/58. Ingy won the lottery, and Patterson got to breathe a sigh of relief of never having to face a prime Eddie Machen. Had things been different, the title progression would have happened the right way:

Patterson -> Machen -> Folley -> Liston

Instead we end up with flukes and ducks exchanging belts until Liston shows up, who had to wait so long for the title that after he won it he lost all hunger in the sport.

He was 30. Not exactly the oldest champ in history. But fine, if you say so I believe you.

[Obama]

He was 30. Not exactly the oldest champ in history. But fine, if you say so I believe you.

Look how great Tyson was at age 30.

[Benncollinsaad]

Look how great Tyson was at age 30.

You comparing Tyson and Liston?Nonono!