Marciano merely a claimant?

[Willie Pep 229]

Of course I don't suggest this to be true . . . but here's the weird thing. . .

Boxrec has all of Charles - Walcott - Marciano's title fights listed as NBA title fights and never uses the phrase World Heavyweight Title.

The simple phrase World Heavyweight Title (in bold) is last used for Louis's second defense against Wallcott and then disappears until the Patterson-Moore elimination bout.

Does anyone have any clue why Boxrec chose not to use the simple phrase World Heavyweight Title between Louis's retirement and Patterson's assent?

Was the NYSAC playing some withholding game?

It seems an odd thing to do for those three champions.

[Marchegiano]

Of course I don't suggest this to be true . . . but here's the weird thing. . .

Boxrec has all of Charles - Walcott - Marciano's title fights listed as NBA title fights and never uses the phrase World Heavyweight Title.

The simple phrase World Heavyweight Title (in bold) is last used for Louis's second defense against Wallcott and then disappears until the Patterson-Moore elimination bout.

Does anyone have any clue why Boxrec chose not to use the simple phrase World Heavyweight Title between Louis's retirement and Patterson's assent?

Was the NYSAC playing some withholding game?

It seems an odd thing to do for those three champions.

Oh this is like something on the cusp of memory. I feel like it had something to do with Louis actually. I think the NYSAC still held Louis as their champion and the IBU had some kind of mandatory situation.


Charles-Walcott was for the NBA title in 49.

Charles-Louis in 50 was for NBA + NYSAC.

In 51 Savold, who had the IBU at the time fought Louis and lost which prompted the IBU to change recognition to Charles


Oddly enough, Boxrec does record this just exactly like I explained, just not on their normal database:
https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/C...t_Title_Fights

NYSAC title record no Charles champion until 50 and Louis

NBA does record Charles as champion when he beat Jersey for the vacant.

IBU isn't on the list...oddly...but take my word for it?

Edit- I didn't specifically say it so I guess I should. By the time Marciano was champion everyone of his title fights are NBA+NYSAC

NYSAC list:

46	1952 Sep 23	Rocky Marciano	KO 13	Jersey Joe Walcott	-	Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
47	1953 May 15	Rocky Marciano	KO 1	Jersey Joe Walcott	1	Chicago, Illinois, USA
48	1953 Sep 24	Rocky Marciano	TKO 11	Roland LaStarza	2	New York, New York, USA
49	1954 Jun 17	Rocky Marciano	UD 15	Ezzard Charles	3	Bronx, New York, USA
50	1954 Sep 17	Rocky Marciano	KO 8	Ezzard Charles	4	Bronx, New York, USA
51	1955 May 16	Rocky Marciano	TKO 9	Don ****ell	5	San Francisco, California, USA
52	1955 Sep 21	Rocky Marciano	KO 9	Archie Moore	6	Bronx, New York, USA

NBA:

50	1952 Sep 23	Rocky Marciano	KO 13	Jersey Joe Walcott	-	Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
51	1953 May 15	Rocky Marciano	KO 1	Jersey Joe Walcott	1	Chicago, Illinois, USA
52	1953 Sep 24	Rocky Marciano	TKO 11	Roland LaStarza	2	New York, New York, USA
53	1954 Jun 17	Rocky Marciano	UD 15	Ezzard Charles	3	Bronx, New York, USA
54	1954 Sep 17	Rocky Marciano	KO 8	Ezzard Charles	4	Bronx, New York, USA
55	1955 May 16	Rocky Marciano	TKO 9	Don ****ell	5	San Francisco, California, USA
56	1955 Sep 21	Rocky Marciano	KO 9	Archie Moore	6	Bronx, New York, USA

Just a weird way of keeping record by Boxrec's part.

As for the IBU/EBU I'm pretty sure they witthdrew from world recognition between Charles and Walcott. Jersey was never an IBU champion because there were no more IBU world champions. That's when the IBU became the regional EBU, I think.

[markusmod]

Of course I don't suggest this to be true . . . but here's the weird thing. . .

Boxrec has all of Charles - Walcott - Marciano's title fights listed as NBA title fights and never uses the phrase World Heavyweight Title.

The simple phrase World Heavyweight Title (in bold) is last used for Louis's second defense against Wallcott and then disappears until the Patterson-Moore elimination bout.

Does anyone have any clue why Boxrec chose not to use the simple phrase World Heavyweight Title between Louis's retirement and Patterson's assent?

Was the NYSAC playing some withholding game?

It seems an odd thing to do for those three champions.

Like Roger Mayweather used to say.... boxrec don't know **** about boxing!

[QueensburyRules]

- -NBA the dominant org of the day that morphed into the modern WBA as I recall.

NYSAC the dominant org before that killed Dempsey/Wills. They still in operation at the state level still making a hash of the sport.

C'mon, guys, I tire of making sport of this forum. Go to Nonstop or Lounge if U want to genuflect what U don't know...

[Willie Pep 229]

- -NBA the dominant org of the day that morphed into the modern WBA as I recall.

NYSAC the dominant org before that killed Dempsey/Wills. They still in operation at the state level still making a hash of the sport.

C'mon, guys, I tire of making sport of this forum. Go to Nonstop or Lounge if U want to genuflect what U don't know...

We all knew that small piece of history you just told us - we (I) wanted to know what were the details as to why Boxrec felt the need to ID the NBA for every fight during that period when it didn't before or after that period.

The NBA came into existence in 1921 as a counter the the already crooked NYSAC and scantioned the Dempsey-Carpentier fight. But got ignored for its effort.

It started with 11 Midwestern States cooperating trying to balance the too powerful NY oligarchy of MSG, NYSAC, and big money.

In 1947 the NBA forced NYSAC to change the first Louis - Walcott fight from a ten round no decision semi-exhibtion fight (with a KO clause) to a 15 round full defense.

They did this by suddenly adding the unknown Walcott to their rankings in spring 1947 and then IDing him as the 'most worthy challenger' after NY announced the exhibition (They did not use a numbered ranking system then.) making NY look silly by supposedly holding an exhibition fight between the champion and their number 1 challenger.

New York took the bait and forced Louis to accept a15 round defense he wasn't ready for.

They, the NBA, had some sort of a deal with Walcott, strong enough that Boxrec 70 years later labels every title fight as an NBA defense from Charkes-Walcott all the way through to Marciano. Then it stopped.

That's the history I am trying to figure out . . .

. . . but thanks for telling me that the NBA moved to South America in the mid 1960s and changed their name to the WBA. That didn't come close to helping.

[QueensburyRules]

We all knew that small piece of history you just told us - we (I) wanted to know what were the details as to why Boxrec felt the need to ID the NBA for every fight during that period when it didn't before or after that period.

The NBA came into existence in 1921 as a counter the the already crooked NYSAC and scantioned the Dempsey-Carpentier fight. But got ignored for its effort.

It started with 11 Midwestern States cooperating trying to balance the too powerful NY oligarchy of MSG, NYSAC, and big money.

In 1947 the NBA forced NYSAC to change the first Louis - Walcott fight from a ten round no decision semi-exhibtion fight (with a KO clause) to a 15 round full defense.

They did this by suddenly adding the unknown Walcott to their rankings in spring 1947 and then IDing him as the 'most worthy challenger' after NY announced the exhibition (They did not use a numbered ranking system then.) making NY look silly by supposedly holding an exhibition fight between the champion and their number 1 challenger.

New York took the bait and forced Louis to accept a15 round defense he wasn't ready for.

They, the NBA, had some sort of a deal with Walcott, strong enough that Boxrec 70 years later labels every title fight as an NBA defense from Charkes-Walcott all the way through to Marciano. Then it stopped.

That's the history I am trying to figure out . . .

. . . but thanks for telling me that the NBA moved to South America in the mid 1960s and changed their name to the WBA. That didn't come close to helping.

- -And thanks for your genuine elucidation.

Boxrec is a perpetual work in flux. Somewhere deep within, there exists a rhyme and reason, but from the outside nobody can discern the logic of their computer ratings. At least they're transparent and carry on a running dialogue with those questioning or pointing out the gross abnormalities that result.

Current snafu is Callum Smith #1 LH ranking based on him saying he was moving up to LH after the Canelo hiding.

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/631178

Which on average makes them materially better than everyone else's ratings that are less transparent and more opinionated...only in boxing, folks...

[Marchegiano]

Jersey started working his way up the quarterly late in 45 and the NBA seemed pretty determined to keep him as their number one contender until Ezzard beat him and even then it wouldn't be long before he was their number one contender until Louis came out of retirement.

Announced October 16, 1945:

Joe Louis, Champion Logical contender Billy Conn Outstanding boxers Jimmy Bivins Tami Mauriello Melio Bettina Honorable mentions Lee Oma Joe Baksi Elmer Ray Jersey Joe Walcott Freddie Schott Bruce Wood**** Johnny Flynn Arturo Godoy Yancy Henry Joey Maxim Johnny Haynes

Announced January 15, 1946:

Joe Louis, Champion Logical contender Billy Conn Outstanding boxers Tami Mauriello Jimmy Bivins Honorable mentions Melio Bettina Lee Oma Jersey Joe Walcott Elmer Ray Bruce Wood**** Arturo Godoy Joey Maxim Johnny Flynn Joe Baksi Lee Savold

Announced April 09, 1946:

Joe Louis, Champion Logical contenders Billy Conn Outstanding boxers Tami Mauriello Jersey Joe Walcott Jimmy Bivins Lee Oma Honorable mentions Melio Bettina Elmer Ray Bruce Wood**** Joe Baksi Phil Muscato Johnny Flynn

Announced July 09, 1946:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Tami Mauriello Jersey Joe Walcott Honorable mentions Elmer Ray Lee Oma Bruce Wood**** Billy Conn Jimmy Bivins Tommy Gomez Joe Baksi Joey Maxim Johnny Flynn

Announced September 11, 1946:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Tami Mauriello Elmer Ray Joey Maxim Jersey Joe Walcott

Announced January 13, 1947:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Elmer Ray Tami Mauriello Bruce Wood**** Jersey Joe Walcott Joe Baksi Joey Maxim Honorable mentions Melio Bettina Curtis Sheppard Lee Q Murray Jimmy Bivins Joe Kahut Joe Matisi Phil Muscato Pat Valentino

Announced April 10, 1947:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Jersey Joe Walcott Bruce Wood**** Elmer Ray Tami Mauriello Joe Baksi Melio Bettina Honorable mentions Joey Maxim Phil Muscato Curtis Sheppard Lee Q Murray Fitzie Fitzpatrick Johnny Shkor

Announced July 11, 1947:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Jersey Joe Walcott Joe Baksi Elmer Ray Tami Mauriello

Announced September 11, 1947:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Jersey Joe Walcott Elmer Ray Olle Tandberg Joe Baksi Honorable mentions Tami Mauriello Joey Maxim Lee Q Murray

Announced December 30, 1947:

Joe Louis, Champion Logical contender Jersey Joe Walcott Outstanding boxers Olle Tandberg Elmer Ray Joe Baksi Joey Maxim

Announced March 26, 1948:

Joe Louis, Champion Logical contender Jersey Joe Walcott Outstanding boxers Elmer Ray Joey Maxim Tommy Gomez Joe Baksi Honorable mentions Henry Flakes Lee Savold Jimmy Bivins Turkey Thompson

Announced July 9, 1948:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Jersey Joe Walcott Lee Savold Honorable mentions Elmer Ray Jimmy Bivins Tommy Gomez Henry Flakes Joey Maxim Turkey Thompson Arturo Godoy Melio Bettina Olle Tandberg Pat Valentino Johnny Flynn

Announced September 16, 1948:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Jersey Joe Walcott Ezzard Charles Joe Baksi Lee Savold Honorable mentions Rusty Payne Joey Maxim Melio Bettina Jimmy Bivins Johnny Flynn Colion Chaney Jo Weidin Turkey Thompson Pat Comiskey

Announced December 21, 1948:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Jersey Joe Walcott Ezzard Charles Honorable mentions Lee Savold Billy Conn Joey Maxim Jimmy Bivins Johnny Flynn Joe Baksi Rusty Payne Bruce Wood****

Announced April 5, 1949:

Title Vacant Logical contenders Jersey Joe Walcott Ezzard Charles Lee Savold Outstanding boxers Joey Maxim Jimmy Bivins Joe Baksi Bruce Wood**** Lee Oma Pat Valentino

Announced July 10, 1949:

Ezzard Charles, Champion Logical contenders Lee Savold Bruce Wood**** Outstanding boxers Jersey Joe Walcott Lee Oma Honorable mentions Joe Baksi Pat Valentino Bernie Reynolds Johnny Flynn Olle Tandberg Roland LaStarza

Announced July 5, 1950:

Ezzard Charles, Champion Logical contenders Jersey Joe Walcott Lee Savold Outstanding boxers Joe Baksi Rocky Marciano Honorable mentions Bob Baker Roland LaStarza Omelio Agramonte Rex Layne Cesar Brion

Announced September 12, 1950:

Ezzard Charles, Champion Logical contender Joe Louis Outstanding boxers Jersey Joe Walcott Lee Savold Honorable mentions Joe Baksi Rocky Marciano Bob Baker Rex Layne Roland LaStarza Omelio Agramonte Cesar Brion Frank Buford

Seems like the NBA had a bit of a Walcott boner, I don't blame them, JJ was very good.

[Willie Pep 229]

Jersey started working his way up the quarterly late in 45 and the NBA seemed pretty determined to keep him as their number one contender until Ezzard beat him and even then it wouldn't be long before he was their number one contender until Louis came out of retirement.

Announced October 16, 1945:

Joe Louis, Champion Logical contender Billy Conn Outstanding boxers Jimmy Bivins Tami Mauriello Melio Bettina Honorable mentions Lee Oma Joe Baksi Elmer Ray Jersey Joe Walcott Freddie Schott Bruce Wood**** Johnny Flynn Arturo Godoy Yancy Henry Joey Maxim Johnny Haynes

Announced January 15, 1946:

Joe Louis, Champion Logical contender Billy Conn Outstanding boxers Tami Mauriello Jimmy Bivins Honorable mentions Melio Bettina Lee Oma Jersey Joe Walcott Elmer Ray Bruce Wood**** Arturo Godoy Joey Maxim Johnny Flynn Joe Baksi Lee Savold

Announced April 09, 1946:

Joe Louis, Champion Logical contenders Billy Conn Outstanding boxers Tami Mauriello Jersey Joe Walcott Jimmy Bivins Lee Oma Honorable mentions Melio Bettina Elmer Ray Bruce Wood**** Joe Baksi Phil Muscato Johnny Flynn

Announced July 09, 1946:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Tami Mauriello Jersey Joe Walcott Honorable mentions Elmer Ray Lee Oma Bruce Wood**** Billy Conn Jimmy Bivins Tommy Gomez Joe Baksi Joey Maxim Johnny Flynn

Announced September 11, 1946:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Tami Mauriello Elmer Ray Joey Maxim Jersey Joe Walcott

Announced January 13, 1947:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Elmer Ray Tami Mauriello Bruce Wood**** Jersey Joe Walcott Joe Baksi Joey Maxim Honorable mentions Melio Bettina Curtis Sheppard Lee Q Murray Jimmy Bivins Joe Kahut Joe Matisi Phil Muscato Pat Valentino

Announced April 10, 1947:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Jersey Joe Walcott Bruce Wood**** Elmer Ray Tami Mauriello Joe Baksi Melio Bettina Honorable mentions Joey Maxim Phil Muscato Curtis Sheppard Lee Q Murray Fitzie Fitzpatrick Johnny Shkor

Announced July 11, 1947:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Jersey Joe Walcott Joe Baksi Elmer Ray Tami Mauriello

Announced September 11, 1947:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Jersey Joe Walcott Elmer Ray Olle Tandberg Joe Baksi Honorable mentions Tami Mauriello Joey Maxim Lee Q Murray

Announced December 30, 1947:

Joe Louis, Champion Logical contender Jersey Joe Walcott Outstanding boxers Olle Tandberg Elmer Ray Joe Baksi Joey Maxim

Announced March 26, 1948:

Joe Louis, Champion Logical contender Jersey Joe Walcott Outstanding boxers Elmer Ray Joey Maxim Tommy Gomez Joe Baksi Honorable mentions Henry Flakes Lee Savold Jimmy Bivins Turkey Thompson

Announced July 9, 1948:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Jersey Joe Walcott Lee Savold Honorable mentions Elmer Ray Jimmy Bivins Tommy Gomez Henry Flakes Joey Maxim Turkey Thompson Arturo Godoy Melio Bettina Olle Tandberg Pat Valentino Johnny Flynn

Announced September 16, 1948:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Jersey Joe Walcott Ezzard Charles Joe Baksi Lee Savold Honorable mentions Rusty Payne Joey Maxim Melio Bettina Jimmy Bivins Johnny Flynn Colion Chaney Jo Weidin Turkey Thompson Pat Comiskey

Announced December 21, 1948:

Joe Louis, Champion Outstanding boxers Jersey Joe Walcott Ezzard Charles Honorable mentions Lee Savold Billy Conn Joey Maxim Jimmy Bivins Johnny Flynn Joe Baksi Rusty Payne Bruce Wood****

Announced April 5, 1949:

Title Vacant Logical contenders Jersey Joe Walcott Ezzard Charles Lee Savold Outstanding boxers Joey Maxim Jimmy Bivins Joe Baksi Bruce Wood**** Lee Oma Pat Valentino

Announced July 10, 1949:

Ezzard Charles, Champion Logical contenders Lee Savold Bruce Wood**** Outstanding boxers Jersey Joe Walcott Lee Oma Honorable mentions Joe Baksi Pat Valentino Bernie Reynolds Johnny Flynn Olle Tandberg Roland LaStarza

Announced July 5, 1950:

Ezzard Charles, Champion Logical contenders Jersey Joe Walcott Lee Savold Outstanding boxers Joe Baksi Rocky Marciano Honorable mentions Bob Baker Roland LaStarza Omelio Agramonte Rex Layne Cesar Brion

Announced September 12, 1950:

Ezzard Charles, Champion Logical contender Joe Louis Outstanding boxers Jersey Joe Walcott Lee Savold Honorable mentions Joe Baksi Rocky Marciano Bob Baker Rex Layne Roland LaStarza Omelio Agramonte Cesar Brion Frank Buford

Seems like the NBA had a bit of a Walcott boner, I don't blame them, JJ was very good.

Thank you for posting that info I want to compare it to the Ring Magazine for the same period.

I think the NBA was using Jersey Joe.

First off I was incorrect in beliving that they added hm (Walcott) to their list in the spring 1947 he was recognized all the way back in '45, but it was April 1947 when they moved him to the number one slot. That was the suspious move.

That was right around the time NYSAC was working out a deal with Louis regarding his intent to fight and exhibition in MSG.

Back in '44 the NYSAC pulled a dirty trick on Louis when at the last minute they informed him that his 4 round exhibition (at MSG) would be a four round title defense against a fighter with a 1-1 record. The NYSAC then announced that the HW Champion could not fight an exhibition in NY that all his fights had to be title defenses. It was absurd. (See Johnny Davis fight, 1944)

Fast forward to 1947 and Louis is on another nationwide series of exhibitions with MSG again on the agenda.

This time the NYSAC offered Louis a compromise deal, a ten round no decision fight (with a KO clause.) The announced fighter is a local favorite Jersey Joe Wslcott.

It is then in April that the NBA bumped Walcott to 'most worthy contender ( #1). Suspious!

The semi exhibition was scheduled for November and Louis stops fighting exhibitions in June and takes some time off before he begins to prepare for the 10 round fight in November.

The NBA then starts a campaign in the media against NY, challenging that their guy (Walcott) deserves a 'real' title challenge.

It works. The NYSAC folds to the media pressure and announces that the fight will be a full 15 round (with judges) defense.

Louis is given an extra few weeks to prepare which moves the fight into December.

Louis then disappears from training camp. His new people (Blackburn has passed away in '42 and his promoter Uncle Mike Jacob's became ill in 1946. Louis was pretty much left alone.) annouces that Louis was over trained and wouldn't be sparing anymore only doing roadwork to get his legs ready for the extra 5 rounds. They then closed the trainig camp to the media. This I believe was BS.

I think Louis just took off not reappearing at camp until right before the fight.

Come the fight he was 'not ready' IMO neither physically or mentally and put on a terrible performance.

I always felt, the way things worked out, if I had been one of the two judges I too would have given Louis the victory no matter how bad he looked (so long as he didn't get KOed). I suspect that's what happened with that decision.

Louis had originally signed on for a 10 round no decision fight and then got caught in the middle of a powerplay between the NBA and the NYSAC and the judges were aware that the entire run up from spring to fight time had been a cluster f uck.

What surprised me about this, when looking at Boxrec, was how powerful that powerplay made the NBA. From that point on Boxrec identifies all the HW titles fights as NBA fights and keeps that moniker all the way through Marciano.

The fight somehow vastly increased the NBA position. That's what I am trying to figure out, where was the NYSAC during that period, and more importantly did the IBC have their claws in the NBA?

Again thanks for that great info I want to compare rankings with Ring and New York (if I can).

[Marchegiano]

Thank you for posting that info I want to compare it to the Ring Magazine for the same period.

I think the NBA was using Jersey Joe.

First off I was incorrect in beliving that they added hm (Walcott) to their list in the spring 1947 he was recognized all the way back in '45, but it was April 1947 when they moved him to the number one slot. That was the suspious move.

That was right around the time NYSAC was working out a deal with Louis regarding his intent to fight and exhibition in MSG.

Back in '44 the NYSAC pulled a dirty trick on Louis when at the last minute they informed him that his 4 round exhibition (at MSG) would be a four round title defense against a fighter with a 1-1 record. The NYSAC then announced that the HW Champion could not fight an exhibition in NY that all his fights had to be title defenses. It was absurd. (See Johnny Davis fight, 1944)

Fast forward to 1947 and Louis is on another nationwide series of exhibitions with MSG again on the agenda.

This time the NYSAC offered Louis a compromise deal, a ten round no decision fight (with a KO clause.) The announced fighter is a local favorite Jersey Joe Wslcott.

It is then in April that the NBA bumped Walcott to 'most worthy contender ( #1). Suspious!

The semi exhibition was scheduled for November and Louis stops fighting exhibitions in June and takes some time off before he begins to prepare for the 10 round fight in November.

The NBA then starts a campaign in the media against NY, challenging that their guy (Walcott) deserves a 'real' title challenge.

It works. The NYSAC folds to the media pressure and announces that the fight will be a full 15 round (with judges) defense.

Louis is given an extra few weeks to prepare which moves the fight into December.

Louis then disappears from training camp. His new people (Blackburn has passed away in '42 and his promoter Uncle Mike Jacob's became ill in 1946. Louis was pretty much left alone.) annouces that Louis was over trained and wouldn't be sparing anymore only doing roadwork to get his legs ready for the extra 5 rounds. They then closed the trainig camp to the media. This I believe was BS.

I think Louis just took off not reappearing at camp until right before the fight.

Come the fight he was 'not ready' IMO neither physically or mentally and put on a terrible performance.

I always felt, the way things worked out, if I had been one of the two judges I too would have given Louis the victory no matter how bad he looked (so long as he didn't get KOed). I suspect that's what happened with that decision.

Louis had originally signed on for a 10 round no decision fight and then got caught in the middle of a powerplay between the NBA and the NYSAC and the judges were aware that the entire run up from spring to fight time had been a cluster f uck.

What surprised me about this, when looking at Boxrec, was how powerful that powerplay made the NBA. From that point on Boxrec identifies all the HW titles fights as NBA fights and keeps that moniker all the way through Marciano.

The fight somehow vastly increased the NBA position. That's what I am trying to figure out, where was the NYSAC during that period, and more importantly did the IBC have their claws in the NBA?

Again thanks for that great info I want to compare rankings with Ring and New York (if I can).

I'm going to leave this mostly unaddressed for now because I can't find something I'm very confident is actually online. I am VERY sure I've found the NYSAC quarterlies before. Everything you're saying makes sense to me. Especially considering Joe was out of shape and not really in the game for sport anymore. I'm very confident I'd found stories in narrative form that covered Joe's having one foot out the door this entire period.

To be fair to the NBA I feel like NY was using Louis as well. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the only reason Louis came back from his short retirement because NY was financing him directly? Imagine if the WBC paid Canelo's purses. We'd all be rightly suspect of that situation. NY didn't want to let Joe go because he was a cash cow and the NBA wanted to get in the good graces of a HW champion like how the NY body was with Louis.

That said, there's a bunch I'd love to talk about here but I'm so distracted by not having those ratings I can't hardly focus. So, I'm going to continue that hunt and when I find it this time I'm downloading them. I'll copy/paste the full quarterlies from the old bodies into a thread if I ever find them all. It is kind of bull**** you know. People call themselves and one another historians but we can't even get the first real body's ****ing ratings for ****. You know what else is bull****? It's going to be a pain in the ass to find the NYSAC ratings and then when I make my thread with all the old ratings in one spot easy for any BS user to read and use, it'll get buried inside a week while nonsense like fav HW, personal p4p lists, and what you watched last remains forever accessible.

[Marchegiano]

Nothing major yet but I thought this was interesting:

By DILLON GRAHAM Sports Editor, AP Feature Service

The mouse in the maze could be no more confused than the fistic fan who tries to figure out the screwey situation in American boxing. Baseball has its Judge Landis. Tennis and golf have associations with national control. Other sports have regulatory boards. But boxing has no universally recognized national body. One organi-

zation, the National Boxing Associ-t< ation, has jurisdiction over 22 states, but harmony doesn’t always exist within its ranks. In the rest of the country where there is boxing, a group of independent state commissions with the New York Athletic commission the most important, run the show and often thumb their noses at the other commissions and the NBA. There are few nationally recognized rules, champions, or suspensions, only a batch of loose “working agreements” which are easily and often broken. There are no less than three socalled world featherweight champions. There are two world middleweight rulers and an uncrowned champion who has decisions ovei; both of them. A boxing enthusiast, in Florida let's say, reads a New York dispatch that Ken Overlin has won the world middleweight championship by outpointing Ceferino Garcia. A few days later, though, he encounters a Seattle bulletin which says that Tony Zale has won the middleweight championship by defeating A! Hostak. No wonder he shakes his head

dazedly, exclaims ‘‘what the hell!” and turns to a sport he can understand. Let's consider the regulatory setups. Most states have boxing commissions and 22 of these are members of the National Boxing Association. They are Alabama, Arkansas, Texas, Kansas, Illinois, North Da-

kota, Minnesota, West ******ia, Wisconsin, ******ia, Kentucky, North Carolina, New Jersey, Louisiana, Rhode Island, Indiana, Connecticut, Mississippi. lowa, Colorado, Nebraska and Montana. The NBA also says it exercises jurisdiction over a number of city commissions in states where there are no central commissions and that its decisions are supported in several foreign lands. Several states, including Washington, Wyoming, Idaho and South Dakota, are not members of the NBA but recognize its champions. There are no state commissions —and comparatively little boxing—in New Mexico, Arizona, Florida, Oklahoma, Nevada, South Carolina. Utah, Vermont, Oregon, Ohio, New Hampshire, Georgia, lowa and Tennessee. Several of the major boxing states are not members of the NBA. These include California, Maryland, New York, Maine. Michigan, Delaware, Missouri and Pennsylvania. These commissions give various reasons why they won’t join the NBA. New York, for instance, says the state law requires that boxing be administered by the New York commission. And so these states go merrily on their way, ofttimes oblivious of each other and the NBA, rating their own "world” champions, doing their own suspending, and running boxing within their confines to suit themserves.

JOHN PHELAN Heads New York Boxing . Commission