Are There Any Examples of a Champion Losing a Title in a No Decision Fight?

[travestyny]

So I was looking into the career of Johnny Kilbane, who was featherweight champion from 1912 to 1923. Pretty astounding! However, it seems that he does get a tiny bit of pushback because a lot of his fights were no-decision contests.

At the time he was fighting, we know that a lot of states only allowed No Decision contests, and usually for 10 rounds if I remember correctly. It's understood that these fights were only no-decision if there was no knockout. In the event that there was a knockout, it's believed that the title would change hands.

That seems to be confirmed here by Kilbane himself. He fought Johnny Dundee Sept. 1912 in New York, and he states that he was somewhat reserved in his approach because the title meant a lot to him.

It would have been poor headwork for me to have started mixing it right off the reel with the Italian. Dundee is a dangerous fellow, has a puzzling style and a damaging punch. I like to please the fight fans, but my title is worth a lot to me and I didn't want to take any chances with the Italian until I had solved his style.

So that made me think. Has there ever been a case when a champion lost the title in a no-decision contest? It would seem that it would be somewhat hard to do with limited rounds and so few titles, plus the color-line in heavyweight boxing (not so hard nowadays since there are so many belts), but there must have been some examples.

Does anyone know of fighters in the early 1900's who lost their title in such a fight?


---Edit---
In the process of making this thread, I found an answer.

5/28/1917: Benny Leonard defeats Freddie Welsh for the lightweight championship by 9th round KO in New York. Referee McPartland actually stopped the fight, which caused Welsh's manager to protest that the title should not change hands because Welsh technically wasn't counted out. But after McPartland pleaded with the manager to throw the sponge, he took matters into his own hands.


So I guess I have my answer...lol. Any other examples?

[markusmod]

Interesting question. Likely may have happened in the current era with so many titles around.

[Willie Pep 229]

What about Johnson-Willard? It was scheduled for 45 rounds with most NWS guys having Johnson ahead at the time of the stoppage but I never came across any official scoring (have you?). - If Johnson had lasted the 45 rounds would Jack Welch the referee have called the fight?

[travestyny]

What about Johnson-Willard? It was scheduled for 45 rounds with most NWS guys having Johnson ahead at the time of the stoppage but I never came across any official scoring (have you?). - If Johnson had lasted the 45 rounds would Jack Welch the referee have called the fight?

This is a good question. I'm not sure if this would be considered a no-decision/exhibition type fight. But I don't think there were judges, were there? I should try to look into that.

I was more thinking along the line of fights in New York during the Frawley act, and other states, since they were all labeled exhibitions and no-decisions. With regards to Willard/Johnson, I'm thinking they were pretty sure someone would fall after a whopping 45 rounds......?

[Willie Pep 229]

This is a good question. I'm not sure if this would be considered a no-decision/exhibition type fight. But I don't think there were judges, were there? I should try to look into that.

I was more thinking along the line of fights in New York during the Frawley act, and other states, since they were all labeled exhibitions and no-decisions. With regards to Willard/Johnson, I'm thinking they were pretty sure someone would fall after a whopping 45 rounds......?

I once saw a poster advertising the Sullivan-Corbett fight as a "Boxing Exhibtion to the finish"

Talk about turning a blind eye.

I know the Louis-Walcott fight was orignally scheduled as a ten round no-decision fight with the classic knock out clause. (It was changed to a full15 round fight.) That was pretty late into the game (1940s) so it wouldn't surprise me if you find some in the 1930s. It wasn't always about a avoiding the law, sometimes it was the only fight the champion would offer. Dempsey-Miske was a ten round no-decision I think.

I will keep an eye out.

[travestyny]

I once saw a poster advertising the Sullivan-Corbett fight as a "Boxing Exhibtion to the finish"

Talk about turning a blind eye.

I know the Louis-Walcott fight was orignally scheduled as a ten round no-decision fight with the classic knock out clause. (It was changed to a full15 round fight.) That was pretty late into the game (1940s) so it wouldn't surprise me if you find some in the 1930s. It wasn't always about a avoiding the law, sometimes it was the only fight the champion would offer. Dempsey-Miske was a ten round no-decision I think.

I will keep an eye out.

Good looking out, brotha. I wasn't sure we would find any, but turns out there might be more than I thought thanks to your posts!

[Willie Pep 229]

One that didn't happen - Fitzsimmons in 1925 (rght before he started negotiating the Dempsey-Wills no-go) he announced an eight round Dempsey-Greb go in Phily. Dempsey refused stating he wanted Wills. But I am not sure if it had happened whether it would have had the KO clause. The one (and only) article I could find on the proposed fight didn't mention that clause.

One has to think anytime the HW Champion gets stopped, exhibition or not, is going to cause a title controversy.

Another no-go: As we talked about the proposed Jeannette-Johnson fight scheduled as a no decision. Had Joe stopped him no doubt he would have claimed the title.

[travestyny]

One that didn't happen - Fitzsimmons in 1925 (rght before he started negotiating the Dempsey-Wills no-go) he announced an eight round Dempsey-Greb go in Phily. Dempsey refused stating he wanted Wills. But I am not sure if it had happened whether it would have had the KO clause. The one (and only) article I could find on the proposed fight didn't mention that clause.

One has to think anytime the HW Champion gets stopped, exhibition or not, is going to cause a title controversy.

Another no-go: As we talked about the proposed Jeannette-Johnson fight scheduled as a no decision. Had Joe stopped him no doubt he would have claimed the title.

I would think the same thing. It's obvious to me that if a champ gets knocked out, the public would consider him not to be the champ anymore. It's just common sense.

I just recalled that the Jeannette Johnson fight was the reason I had begun looking into this stuff, which then led me to looking into Kilbane's career. One guy here was insisting that the proposed Johnson/Jeannette bout wasn't for the championship despite all of the proof to the contrary. The information here shows that he was undeniably wrong. But I wasn't sure there would be a case where it actually occurred that the champ lost by KO and had the title taken.

It doesn't seem like it happened often. At least not in the 10 round fights.

Looking into that Benny Leonard fight was really interesting. It made me wonder how many fights ended with the referee stopping the match on his own accord, because it caused some (small degree) of controversy. The public believed it to be fine apparently, but of course, the fighter and manager thought it unfair. One of the articles I read that was criticizing Welsh and his manager mentioned that Battling Nelson was saved by the ref in one of his fights. I believe it was against Ad Wolgast. So now the side question that I was wondering is examples from way back when referees stopped fights of their own accord. Usually it was police jumping in the ring or the sponge being thrown in, right? That Benny Leonard fight was really interesting because Leonard was asking the ref to step in, and the ref was asking Welsh's corner to step in. In the end the ref had his hand forced. There were some articles praising Leonard for being so humane, while knowing he needed to win by knockout.

[Willie Pep 229]

Boy, refree Billy "Kid" McPartland (Leonard-Welch 1917) has a hell of a resume.

Thanks for the tip I checked out an article on the Leonard- Welch stoppage. Leonard was forced to fight Welch twice before in no-decision fights before he finally was able to stop him inside of ten.

[travestyny]

Boy, refree Billy "Kid" McPartland (Leonard-Welch 1917) has a hell of a resume.

Thanks for the tip I checked out an article on the Leonard- Welch stoppage. Leonard was forced to fight Welch twice before in no-decision fights before he finally was able to stop him inside of ten.

Yep, exactly! If I remembered, I think one at least one of those he was widely thought to have won as well. One of the articles I have was saying how he would never get a long chance to beat him or a short chance in a decision state to beat him. Even with all of that he showed some degree of mercy in the NY fight. I want to learn a bit more about Benny Leonard after reading up the little that I have on him. Seems pretty cool.