When did Muhammad Ali start to slide ?

[Obama]

joseph, Ali's two tune up fights were against world class opponents. One people have the nerve to call the greatest Heavyweight to never win the title. He was as ready as ready could be for that fight.

As for Cooper not being his prime, when the hell is his prime then? Must have been as short as Mike Tyson's.

[Miburo]

Start to slide? During the three year layoff - his reflexes and footspeed diminished significantly. If you mean when did he begin to show signs of being shot, after Frazier III.

[Dynamite Kid]

Jimmy Young
BORN November 16 1948; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
DIED February 20 2005; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
HEIGHT 6-2
WEIGHT 185-237 lbs
RECORD 34-19-2 (11 KO, 1 NC)
Young was a talented "Philadelphia" fighter with great ring "savvy"; He possessed fast hands and tangled with the best heavyweights during an era of outstanding big men; However, Jimmy was erratic in his performances - when he was good, he was great - but, when he was bad, he was terrible; To his credit, nearly half of his losses (9) came in his last fourteen fights - at the end of his career

Jimmy is most famous for his title bout against Muhammad Ali, a contest in which most boxing fans believe he won but received an unjust decision, and his victory over big George Foreman; Young defeated such men as Foreman, Ron Lyle, Richard Dunn, John L. Gardner, Jose Luis Garcia, Jose "King" Roman, "Memphis" Al Jones and Gordon Racette

Herb Goldman ranked Young among the Top 25 All-Time Heavyweights

[joseph5620]

joseph, Ali's two tune up fights were against world class opponents. One people have the nerve to call the greatest Heavyweight to never win the title. He was as ready as ready could be for that fight.

His opponents had nothing to do with whether he was still in his prime.

As for Cooper not being his prime, when the hell is his prime then? Must have been as short as Mike Tyson's.

It sure as hell wasn't when he was 21 with 18 pro fights. How many fighters do you know were in their primes at 21? Especially heavyweights. I would say his prime was when he was forced to give up the title in 67.

[Obama]

It sure as hell wasn't when he was 21 with 18 pro fights. How many fighters do you know were in their primes at 21? Especially heavyweights. I would say his prime was when he was forced to give up the title in 67.

So you're saying Muhammad Ali either never fought or fought 1-2 times in his prime...

[joseph5620]

So you're saying Muhammad Ali either never fought or fought 1-2 times in his prime...

That's not what I said but nice try putting words in my mouth. I said he was in his prime when he was stripped of his titles in 1967. I didn't say 1967 was when he reached his prime. That has nothing to do with how many fights he had in his prime. But the point is he was not in his prime for the first Cooper fight. He hadn't even had a championship fight yet. That's not debatable for most people.

[Obama]

That's not what I said but nice try putting words in my mouth. I said he was in his prime when he was stripped of his titles in 1967. I didn't say 1967 was when he reached his prime. That has nothing to do with how many fights he had in his prime. But the point is he was not in his prime for the first Cooper fight. He hadn't even had a championship fight yet. That's not debatable for most people.

Wrong, most people would call that a prime Ali. This is an olympic gold medalist we're talking about here. The man beat Sonny Liston for the title in his very next fight. So tell me, when the hell did he finally reach his prime?

[Sugarj]

I'd say that prime Ali was late 1966 and 1967. Best performances were Williams, Terrell and Folley. He improved every year from 63 onwards. The Ali that faced Cooper the second time in 1966 was much better than the one who fought in 1963.

1965 was an inactive year for Ali, a hernia caused this. In this year he had the one round win over Liston and the win over Patterson. His activity level in 1966 was much higher, Mildenberger, London, Cooper, Chuvalo and Williams really kept him sharp and helped him hone his craft.

[Obama]

I'd say that prime Ali was late 1966 and 1967. Best performances were Williams, Terrell and Folley. He improved every year from 63 onwards. The Ali that faced Cooper the second time in 1966 was much better than the one who fought in 1963.

1965 was an inactive year for Ali, a hernia caused this. In this year he had the one round win over Liston and the win over Patterson. His activity level in 1966 was much higher, Mildenberger, London, Cooper, Chuvalo and Williams really kept him sharp and helped him hone his craft.

I don't make a big deal of ring intelligence in prime status. By doing that, George Foreman effectively never fought in his prime, since he didn't gain any sense until he came out of a 10 year retirement. His lack of ring intelligence is the primary reason Ali and Young embarrassed him so bad. If he fought smart, a declining Ali would never have beat him. He'd go on to look better against a prime Evander Holyfield around 15 years after losing to Young.

[Sugarj]

Hi *****, I didn't mention anything about ring intelligence although I agree with the premise, I just felt Ali was more graceful, sharper, more accurate, better paced and polished in the late 60s than early to mid, more of an athletic peak. In 'When We Were Kings' Ali talks about himself facing Liston as a '21 year old, underdeveloped kid', even he didn't think that was his prime.

I totally agree with you about George Foreman. If he hadn't retired I think his true peak would have come around 1982. Imagine a 32 year old 235 Lb Foreman with the patience of his later years but without the excess weight or lack of speed, he could have been amazing in the early 80s.