Poll: Who's The Greatest Welterweight..?

[mickey malone]

ATGs

01. Ray Robinson
02. Sam Langford
03. Henry Armstrong
04. Ray Leonard
05. Kid Gavilan
06. Jose Napoles
07. Barney Ross
08. Jimmy McLarnin
09. Thomas Hearns
10. Oscar De La Hoya
11. Emile Griffith
12. Feliz Trinidad
13. Tommy Ryan
14. Luis Rodriguez
15. Duilio Loi
16. Antonio Cervantes
17. Shane Mosley
18. Wilfred Benitez
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
21. Aaron Pryor

1. Ray Robinson
2. Felix Trinidad
3. Ray Leonard
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Jose Napoles
6. Henry Armstrong
7. Carlos Palomino
8. Shane Mosley
9. Kid Gavilan
10. Thomas Hearns
11. Oscar De La Hoya
12. Pipino Cuevas
13. Curtis Cokes
14. Buddy McGirt
15. Jack Britton
16. Marlon Starling
17. Ted Kid Lewis
18. Simon Brown
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Miguel Cotto

[mickey malone]

ATGs

01. Ray Robinson
02. Sam Langford
03. Henry Armstrong
04. Ray Leonard
05. Kid Gavilan
06. Jose Napoles
07. Barney Ross
08. Jimmy McLarnin
09. Thomas Hearns
10. Oscar De La Hoya
11. Emile Griffith
12. Feliz Trinidad
13. Tommy Ryan
14. Luis Rodriguez
15. Duilio Loi
16. Antonio Cervantes
17. Shane Mosley
18. Wilfred Benitez
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
21. Aaron Pryor

1. Ray Robinson
2. Felix Trinidad
3. Ray Leonard
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Jose Napoles
6. Henry Armstrong
7. Carlos Palomino
8. Shane Mosley
9. Kid Gavilan
10. Thomas Hearns
11. Oscar De La Hoya
12. Pipino Cuevas
13. Curtis Cokes
14. Buddy McGirt
15. Jack Britton
16. Marlon Starling
17. Ted Kid Lewis
18. Simon Brown
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Miguel Cotto

[StarshipTrooper]

1. Ray Robinson
2. Felix Trinidad
3. Ray Leonard
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Jose Napoles
6. Henry Armstrong
7. Carlos Palomino
8. Shane Mosley
9. Kid Gavilan
10. Thomas Hearns
11. Oscar De La Hoya
12. Pipino Cuevas
13. Curtis Cokes
14. Buddy McGirt
15. Jack Britton
16. Marlon Starling
17. Ted Kid Lewis
18. Simon Brown
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Miguel Cotto

Your list is rather top-heavy with fighters from the last 15 years. Trinidad at 2? Felix clearly lost to De La Hoya and got a gift decision, outside of that the only other time he fought a prime A class fighter he lost badly (to Hopkins).

Poet

[mickey malone]

Your list is rather top-heavy with fighters from the last 15 years. Trinidad at 2? Felix clearly lost to De La Hoya and got a gift decision, outside of that the only other time he fought a prime A class fighter he lost badly (to Hopkins).

Poet

Partly the reason for this thread.. I sometimes feel deluded about this, but I do feel that welter has produced it's bulk in quality over the last 20 years..
As you know, I'm normally a main stay on the old school, but as already mentioned, I struggle to do it at this weight.. Maybe I'm wrong, but with exception of the De La Hoya fight, Trinidad had a great resume at welter.. I try to ignore the Hopkins fight as it was at middle, & a long time after he'd cleaned up at welter..

[StarshipTrooper]

Partly the reason for this thread.. I sometimes feel deluded about this, but I do feel that welter has produced it's bulk in quality over the last 20 years..
As you know, I'm normally a main stay on the old school, but as already mentioned, I struggle to do it at this weight.. Maybe I'm wrong, but with exception of the De La Hoya fight, Trinidad had a great resume at welter.. I try to ignore the Hopkins fight as it was at middle, & a long time after he'd cleaned up at welter..

Trinidad's resume as Welterweight champ:

Oscar De La Hoya - Already covered
Hugo Pineda - Journeyman
Pernell Whitaker - Washed up and in and out of rehab
Mahenge Zulu - Who?
Troy Waters - Journeyman
Kevin Lueshing - Who?
Ray Lovato - Who?
Freddie Pendleton - Decent opponant
Rodney Moore - Who?
Larry Barnes - Who?
Roger Turner - Who?
Oba Carr - Who?
Luis Ramon Campas - Journeyman
Hector Camacho - The nutless wonder himself
Anthony Stephens - Who?
Luis Gabriel Garcia - Who?
Maurice Blocker - C class fighter already exposed by Simon Brown

[Southpaw16BF]

Trinidad's resume as Welterweight champ:

Oscar De La Hoya - Already covered
Hugo Pineda - Journeyman
Pernell Whitaker - Washed up and in and out of rehab
Mahenge Zulu - Who?
Troy Waters - Journeyman
Kevin Lueshing - Who?
Ray Lovato - Who?
Freddie Pendleton - Decent opponant
Rodney Moore - Who?
Larry Barnes - Who?
Roger Turner - Who?
Oba Carr - Who?
Luis Ramon Campas - Journeyman
Hector Camacho - The nutless wonder himself
Anthony Stephens - Who?
Luis Gabriel Garcia - Who?
Maurice Blocker - C class fighter already exposed by Simon Brown

Well it's pretty easy to do that with most resume's. But I see, you have Luis Ramon Campas as a journymen. You do realize Campas was 56-0 heading into the fight with Trinidad. And had some pretty solid wins over some vetrans and unbeaten fighters. And after the Trinidad fight he would go on to win a world title. That is no journyman

And I also see who have Oba Carr as ''who''. Going onto the fight Carr was 32-0 and after being stoped by Trinidad would go on to give a prime Ike Quartey one of his toughest fights taking him to a MD. He would also get wins over 27-0 Derrell Coley, Frankie Randall, and Luis Ramon Campas.

I also felt you overlooked his Hector Camacho win to. Going into the fight Hector had only been defeated twiced by Julio Cesar Chavez and a strange SD loss to Greg Haugen, which he avenged. Going into the Tito fight he held wins over Rafael Limon, Jose Luis Ramirez, Edwin Rosario, Howard Davis Jr, Ray Mancini, Vinny Pazienza. In the fight Trinidad showed clever pressure out pointing Hector in only his 23 fight. This win shound't be overlooked.

As for his wins over contenders like Roger Turner, Larry Barnes, Rodney Moore, Troy Waters etc etc. This can't be held against Trinidad, you will find most dominant champions have to defend there title against medicore contenders.

And although I feel he didnt win the De La Hoya fight. Trinidad resume I feel is pretty damn good and should be remebered up there as one of the strongest. Do I don't know about having him number #2 on a 147 list.

[StarshipTrooper]

Well it's pretty easy to do that with most resume's.

Of course. I believe I've pointed that out in the past.

But I see, you have Luis Ramon Campas as a journymen. You do realize Campas was 56-0 heading into the fight with Trinidad. And had some pretty solid wins over some vetrans and unbeaten fighters. And after the Trinidad fight he would go on to win a world title. That is no journyman

Peter McNeely was 38-0 heading into the Tyson fight.

And I also see who have Oba Carr as ''who''. Going onto the fight Carr was 32-0 and after being stoped by Trinidad would go on to give a prime Ike Quartey one of his toughest fights taking him to a MD. He would also get wins over 27-0 Derrell Coley, Frankie Randall, and Luis Ramon Campas.

That was a mistake. I don't think Carr was a "who?"

I also felt you overlooked his Hector Camacho win to. Going into the fight Hector had only been defeated twiced by Julio Cesar Chavez and a strange SD loss to Greg Haugen, which he avenged. Going into the Tito fight he held wins over Rafael Limon, Jose Luis Ramirez, Edwin Rosario, Howard Davis Jr, Ray Mancini, Vinny Pazienza. In the fight Trinidad showed clever pressure out pointing Hector in only his 23 fight. This win shound't be overlooked.

In my mind Hector Camacho was joke and will newver be otherwise.

As for his wins over contenders like Roger Turner, Larry Barnes, Rodney Moore, Troy Waters etc etc. This can't be held against Trinidad, you will find most dominant champions have to defend there title against medicore contenders.

The promblem is not that he had some mediocre names on during his title run the problem is they make up 95% of it.

And although I feel he didnt win the De La Hoya fight. Trinidad resume I feel is pretty damn good and should be remebered up there as one of the strongest. Do I don't know about having him number #2 on a 147 list.

Here's the issue though: Where are the A class fighters that one can hold up as evidence of an outstanding resume? Especially when there are only a couple of B class fighters on it. If someone is going to rank a fighter at number 2 all-time in a weight class and hold up their resume as evidence then that resume is going to come under scrutiny.

Poet

[mickey malone]

Well it's pretty easy to do that with most resume's. But I see, you have Luis Ramon Campas as a journymen. You do realize Campas was 56-0 heading into the fight with Trinidad. And had some pretty solid wins over some vetrans and unbeaten fighters. And after the Trinidad fight he would go on to win a world title. That is no journyman
Sorry...This was supposed to be for Poet..
And I also see who have Oba Carr as ''who''. Going onto the fight Carr was 32-0 and after being stoped by Trinidad would go on to give a prime Ike Quartey one of his toughest fights taking him to a MD. He would also get wins over 27-0 Derrell Coley, Frankie Randall, and Luis Ramon Campas.

I also felt you overlooked his Hector Camacho win to. Going into the fight Hector had only been defeated twiced by Julio Cesar Chavez and a strange SD loss to Greg Haugen, which he avenged. Going into the Tito fight he held wins over Rafael Limon, Jose Luis Ramirez, Edwin Rosario, Howard Davis Jr, Ray Mancini, Vinny Pazienza. In the fight Trinidad showed clever pressure out pointing Hector in only his 23 fight. This win shound't be overlooked.

As for his wins over contenders like Roger Turner, Larry Barnes, Rodney Moore, Troy Waters etc etc. This can't be held against Trinidad, you will find most dominant champions have to defend there title against medicore contenders.

And although I feel he didnt win the De La Hoya fight. Trinidad resume I feel is pretty damn good and should be remebered up there as one of the strongest. Do I don't know about having him number #2 on a 147 list.

Sorry... This was meant for Poet..
I'd say he's better than you've credited him..
He was the dominant champ from 93-2000 & remains unbeaten at the weight, defending the title 15 times..
All of his defenses were against prime candidates..

Pineda 36-1-1
Zulu 17-2-1
Waters 27-4-0
Lueshing (EU Champ) 19-1-0
Lovato 21-1-0
Barnes 39-1-0
Turner 29-2-0
Carr 32-0-0
Campas 56-0-0
Camacho 43-2-0
Garcia 24-2-0
Blocker 34-3-0

All in all he defended against 5 world champions..
Of the above list only Camacho was able to last the course, & YES... By running it was.. Trinidad was an unbelievable WW..

[Southpaw16BF]

Of course. I believe I've pointed that out in the past.

But you have just completey done it with Trinidad's accomplishments and resume.

Peter McNeely was 38-0 heading into the Tyson fight.

Wrong. Mcneely was 36-1 he had been defeated going into the Tyson bout. And I don't think you can compare Campas with McNeely. Campas was a good fighter in his prime, and a much more legit one than McNeely ever was. After losing to Trinidad, Campas would go on to win the IBF 154 Title and make 3 defences of the title. And holds wins over Jorge Vaca, Raul Marquez(28-0), and Tony Ayala Jr(27-0).

That was a mistake. I don't think Carr was a "who?"

Fair enough. Do I think you have made a mistake regarding Campas aswell.

In my mind Hector Camacho was joke and will newver be otherwise.

Unless Hector has done something to you on a personal level, Why so much hate against him? Camacho was a accomplished fighter. Who holds wins over Rafael Limon, Jose Luis Ramirez, Edwin Rosario, Cornelius Boza Edwards, Howard Davis Jr, Vinny Pazienza, Greg Haugen.

His wins over Duran and Leonard don't mean much, although Leonard said Camacho was very good fighter with one of the fastest set of hands he had seen. Camacho was also a 3 weight division champion. To me thats a pretty sound resume and some pretty impressive accomplishments.

The promblem is not that he had some mediocre names on during his title run the problem is they make up 95% of it.

Oscar De La Hoya, Pernell Whitaker, Yori Boy Campas(56-0), Oba Carr(32-0), Hector Camacho. 95%? lets not talk silly.

Here's the issue though: Where are the A class fighters that one can hold up as evidence of an outstanding resume? Especially when there are only a couple of B class fighters on it. If someone is going to rank a fighter at number 2 all-time in a weight class and hold up their resume as evidence then that resume is going to come under scrutiny.

Like I said Trinidad shound't be a placed number #2 at on a 147 list. And I think Trinidad's whole resume of wins is pretty impressive, and I can think of few more ATG fighters with a worst resume of wins.



....................

[Obama]

Felix Trinidad
Notable Wins:
Jake Rodriguez
Alberto de las Mercedes Cortes
Maurice Blocker
Hector Camacho (Post-Prime)
Luis Ramon Campas (Undefeated)
Oba Carr (Undefeated)
Freddie Pendleton (Post-Prime)
Pernell Whitaker (Over the hill)
Oscar De La Hoya (Undefeated)
David Reid (Undefeated)
Fernando Vargas (Undefeated)
William Joppy
Ricardo Mayorga
Notable Losses:
Bernard Hopkins
Winky Wright [Tito Post-Prime]
Questionable Wins:
Oscar De La Hoya

Elite wins:
Oscar De La Hoya, Fernando Vargas
Semi-elite wins:
Hector Camacho, Oba Carr, Pernell Whitaker, David Reid
Good wins:
Maurice Blocker, Luis Ramon Campas, Freddie Pendleton, William Joppy, Ricardo Mayorga
OK wins:
Jake Rodriguez, Alberto de las Mercedes Cortes

Decent resume. But, not sure he even makes my top 10 Welterweight list. If he does, he's at the bottom.

And all you people under rating Oba Carr...I wonder if you ever watched this man fight.