Sonny Liston vs. Joe Frazier

[Kid McCoy]

Was Frazier blind in one eye and how long was it for? was it from his amature days or just late on in his career? and how was he passing eye test medicals?

Frazier damaged his eye in a training accident in the mid-60s, after which he only had limited vision in it. When Ali closed the other eye in Manila he was effectively blind in the ring.

Reasoning it was better to be blind and rich than blind and broke, he kept the condition secret. He passed his medicals with the simple expedient of switching his hands as took his eye test, but both times covering the same eye.

[Gettin Jiggy]

Frazier damaged his eye in a training accident in the mid-60s, after which he only had limited vision in it. When Ali closed the other eye in Manila he was effectively blind in the ring.

Reasoning it was better to be blind and rich than blind and broke, he kept the condition secret. He passed his medicals with the simple expedient of switching his hands as took his eye test, but both times covering the same eye.

Thanks Man for the information. wow frazier has got balls getting in there with one eye. so he was virtually blind in one eye when he won the heavyweight title?

[Sugarj]

To be honest I was fairly impressed by Sonny Liston's defense in the mid to late 50s and early 60s when many thought he was the best heavyweight in the world, even though Floyd Patterson, or at least Cus D'Amato would not give him a title shot until the early 60s. He had a good workrate and could do the full fifteen rounds without trouble (I think he went this distance with Eddie Machen).

His chin was remarkable even when he was hit, Cleveland Williams at his peak was a heavy hitting monster too but Liston just shrugged his shots off. Even George Foreman, who sparred Liston said that he was suprised that even when hitting him with his heaviest shots, Liston barely blinked. I dont think Frazier, who was shorter, lighter and shorter reached would dent Liston.

Did Frazier ever beat a really hard puncher, I wouldn't say that Quarry or Ellis were really devestating punchers? Bonavena was handy but no Foreman or Liston. He didn't face Lyle, Shavers or Norton...........he may well have beaten them but they all punched very hard so who knows?

As for Liston having no heart, there was something clearly wrong in the Ali rematch. We'll never know the true story here, but he did show plenty before 1965.

[TheGreatA]

To be honest I was fairly impressed by Sonny Liston's defense in the mid to late 50s and early 60s when many thought he was the best heavyweight in the world, even though Floyd Patterson, or at least Cus D'Amato would not give him a title shot until the early 60s. He had a good workrate and could do the full fifteen rounds without trouble (I think he went this distance with Eddie Machen).

His chin was remarkable even when he was hit, Cleveland Williams at his peak was a heavy hitting monster too but Liston just shrugged his shots off. Even George Foreman, who sparred Liston said that he was suprised that even when hitting him with his heaviest shots, Liston barely blinked. I dont think Frazier, who was shorter, lighter and shorter reached would dent Liston.

Did Frazier ever beat a really hard puncher, I wouldn't say that Quarry or Ellis were really devestating punchers? Bonavena was handy but no Foreman or Liston. He didn't face Lyle, Shavers or Norton...........he may well have beaten them but they all punched very hard so who knows?

As for Liston having no heart, there was something clearly wrong in the Ali rematch. We'll never know the true story here, but he did show plenty before 1965.

Frazier supposedly got the better of Norton in sparring most of the time and there is a rumour that he even knocked Norton out once. Both were friends and trained by Futch so I doubt a fight between the two could have ever happened.

Shavers had a big punch but I don't think he could have beaten Frazier. Far too limited and lacking the conditioning that Frazier had.

Lyle could punch, surely, but I feel he might be a little overrated as a puncher due to the brawl with Foreman.

The loss to Foreman in my opinion had a lot more to do with Frazier's style than his chin. Anyone would have gone down had they leaned into Foreman's uppercuts the way Frazier did.


2:30

Frazier was inexperienced against Bonavena and went down twice but aside from that he seemed to take Bonavena's punches very well. Charlie Goldman, Bonavena's trainer, said that his punch was equal or harder than Rocky Marciano's whom he had also trained. He was simply too crude to land consistently on most of his opponents but he did land a lot of leather on Frazier in their two fights.

[Sugarj]

I'd probably shade Frazier over Norton too.

As for Shavers, there was nothing wrong with his conditioning against Ali.......full fifteen rounds, fairly close decision. He may have only needed to detonate once or twice to beat Frazier. Lets face it he DID knock Norton out in one and Norton had only just lost the closest fight to Holmes and was far from shot going into that fight, Ernie wiped him out! That said Ernie's chin wasn't amazing so Frazier too would have a good chance to do the same to him.

Lyle was a good fighter, clearly heavy handed and ahead on points before Ali stopped him late, he'd have a fair chance against Frazier.

So I ask again did Frazier ever beat a really hard puncher?

[mickey malone]

Joe frazier ducked an old washed up sonny liston just like he ducked mac foster,ron lyle,earnie shavers,al lewis and leotis martin

his glass jaw couldn't handle real big punchers and that's why he and his smart managment avoided such fighters throughout his entire career



****i*g idiot,he was certainly intimidated the first time around against george foreman.Too fast was he? you mean like a prime floyd patterson? more heart than liston? why don't you just admit that you know nothing about liston other than his fights with ali? I guess you wouldn't know he had his jaw broken yet he continued on would you?

frazier quit against ali the third time around and convinced eddie futch to come up with a **** and bull story about him wanting to continue? do you no recall frazier running like a coward from foreman's big right hand either?

lmao he hit harder than liston now did he? not only are you a cop out who speads his legs apart to other bully boy posters but you also don't know **** about boxing

Fights b4 Ali... All wins

Zora Folley
Eddie Macken
Cleveland Williams
Roy Harris
Nino Valdez

Think it's fair to say, Frazier would'a beaten all of these (Can't remember but I think he did 1or2 of em)

Fights between losing to Ali & losing to Martin (who Frazier would of also beaten)

Dave Bailey 15-16-2
Bill McMurray 23-18-2
Willis Earls 4-7-1
Roger Rischer 29-11-2
Amos Lincoln 40-10-2
Billy Joiner 9-4-3
George Johnson 16-17-4
Sonny Moore 20-30-2

And they're impressive credentials are they..?... It appears the 'phantom' punch from Ali took away his lifes blood.. Frazier never let that happen to him, did he?
Further more, I don't recall Frazier taking on a diet of journeymen...
Now... Mr Know **** all.. Go cry to ye mumma...

YOU are the bully boy poster, & I've ****ed bullies more times than you've hung outside public toilets...

[TheGreatA]

I'd probably shade Frazier over Norton too.

As for Shavers, there was nothing wrong with his conditioning against Ali.......full fifteen rounds, fairly close decision. He may have only needed to detonate once or twice to beat Frazier. Lets face it he DID knock Norton out in one and Norton had only just lost the closest fight to Holmes and was far from shot going into that fight, Ernie wiped him out! That said Ernie's chin wasn't amazing so Frazier too would have a good chance to do the same to him.

Lyle was a good fighter, clearly heavy handed and ahead on points before Ali stopped him late, he'd have a fair chance against Frazier.

So I ask again did Frazier ever beat a really hard puncher?

It depends on what you view as a really hard puncher. I don't think Lyle or Norton punched any harder than Oscar Bonavena did, in fact I don't think of Norton as much of a puncher at all despite his one round KO win over Bobick. Lyle was obviously heavy-handed but he didn't really have any career-defining KO's.

Shavers ran out of stamina against Lyle but he was as well-conditioned as ever against Ali (and he also paced himself), that fight however was in 1977 when Frazier had already retired. I can't see the 1973-1975 Shavers beating Frazier at the time.

Chuvalo had 64 KO's out of 73 wins, Frazier beat him down in 4 rounds. Manuel Ramos was known for a terrific right uppercut and Frazier absorbed it in the very first round. Ellis had a sharp right but it did no damage on Frazier. Quarry had a powerful counter left hook but Frazier walked right through it.

[fight_professor]

Just to interject here re: phantom punch. It was a hell of a right hand that landed flush. Was nothing iffy that night!

[Sugarj]

To be honest Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena or Ramos didn't punch nearly as hard as Sonny Liston though, I think we'd see a KO in Liston's favour at some point. He arguably hit as hard as Foreman and Foreman knocked Frazier down what eight times in two fights. Past prime or not Frazier would be in doggy doo against Liston.

[TheGreatA]

To be honest Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena or Ramos didn't punch nearly as hard as Sonny Liston though, I think we'd see a KO in Liston's favour at some point. He arguably hit as hard as Foreman and Foreman knocked Frazier down what eight times in two fights. Past prime or not Frazier would be in doggy doo against Liston.

Agreed but I don't buy the argument that Frazier ducked punchers. He fought all the contenders that he was supposed to.

Lyle, Foster and Shavers had their chance to become Frazier's top contender when they fought Quarry and were all beaten decisively by him.

I don't think Liston has quite the raw power of Foreman. I also don't think that Frazier was at his very best against Foreman. He seemed to have abandoned the things that made him great in his fights against rather low level opposition Ron Stander and Terry Daniels, walking in straight forward with less bobbing & weaving, and looking for the one punch.

Even a shot, overweight Frazier went 3 more rounds with Foreman in 1976.