Rankings tourny - top 64: Heavyeight

[JAB5239]

i think Ali would have outboxed Joe to be honest. I woulda been pulling for Louis but I don't think he would have been able to get to Ali with enough to stop him, especially with how good Ali's chin was.

There are a few schools of thought on this. I subscribe to the one below. If someone picks Ali I would argue just for the sake of arguing, not because I really thought they were wrong.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/alilouis.html

[Kid McCoy]

Interesting thread. The one in particular that I have a viewpoint on is Bruno-Marciano, where my prediction differs from yours.

I don't think a decision win for Marciano is likely. I guess my main reason for not expecting it to go the distance is that Frank did have stamina problems, and faded late even in what I consider to be his best performance (vs McCall, the only time he ever went the full 12 rounds). His punch resistance was not great either.

I can see Bruno out boxing Marciano early on before getting caught with something that turns things around (similar to his fight with Lennox Lewis) leading to a KO for Rocky.

I think that Bruno had good skills. He was technically solid and at his best he worked his jab very well. I think that if Marciano went for the KO early, there's a good chance that Bruno would land something that might make Rocky decide to take a less risky approach.

I think Marciano would be kept on the outside, but would patiently bide his time, and take his opportunity when he saw something he could exploit. Sadly, Bruno did not react well when caught flush, and the first time that he got hurt would probably be the last, as Marciano was not the type to let someone off the hook.

Just my opinion of course, and as a Bruno fan maybe I'm overrating his skills, but that's the way I see the fight going.

I'd say that's a pretty good assessment of Bruno. I think he'd lose to Marciano the same way he lost to Witherspoon, Smith and Lewis - out-boxing his opponent early before tiring and getting caught with a Hail Mary shot. He did have decent boxing skills (I don't recall anyone really out-boxing him) and with his excellent jab, and his size and reach advantages I don't think the Rock could out-box him. But eventually Marciano would catch up to him, especially in a 15 rounder. Bruno's chin wasn't as bad as some say; what hurt him more was he telegraphed it when he was hurt and had no survival instincts.

Btw, other than that Jab, I agree with most of your picks. The only one I can see that I disagree on his Johnson vs Louis. I think Johnson would struggle to handle Louis' combinations, and I'm not convinced his chin could withstand Joe's attack, so Louis by KO. Good topic though.

[RightCross94]

1 Ali vs 2 Louis Louis by tko

thats an interesting pick there

im not sure i agree, i can see ali maybe hitting the canvas in this one, but not staying down or getting badly hurt.

louis was, for all his good attributes, pretty slow on his feet and i dont think he could have dealt with ali constantly moving around him and picking him off

ali has the reach advantage and the handspeed advantage. when they exchange ali is going to land first 9x out of 10- and thats why joe loses, because he, as a puncher, is going to be looking to trade with ali, and when he does get into a position to trade he will get hit, and then be hitting air as ali bounces away

and when louis does land, granted he may drop or wobble ali but ali's resilience is second to none and i see him recovering and going on to win the fight

[mickey malone]

Good Post... The main thing is the outcome, which in my opinion is correct..
There was only one prediction (in the first list) I didn't agree with..

I just can't see 5'9" Jimmy Bivins, beating 6'4" Joe Bugner..
Bugner had a 50% KO ratio & almost as many fights as Bivins..
Bivins also lost to a lot of light heavyweights & only had a 28% KO ratio..
Both fought the best in their divisions, but Bugner fought far more genuine heavies, & had far less defeats on his record.. Both had good chins..
In my opinion, this prediction should be the opposite, with Bugner getting the UD..

[Slimey Limey]

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Sorry but I'll favor Eddie Futch's opinion over yours any day. You simply cant understand boxing strategy because you have never fought. Your opinion has an agenda and is "armchair" best

Oh I see, the old "you never fought!!" argument and then a copy paste job from an expert who had an opinion, which the majority of experts would disagree with.

Ali and Holmes were 2 of the slickest boxers ever. Louis had a lot of trouble with slick boxers(Walcott, Conn, Schmeling and so on). They had great movement, something the slow plodding Louis lacked. They had longer accurate jabs, which Louis had trouble with. They had 2 of the fastest counter right hands ever, which would have found home considering Louis' lazy arse low left hand.
And on and on and on.

Yet SUPERMAN LOUIS is gonna beat all of them according to the second biggest Louis nutgrabber Jabbie. Forget styles mismatches, quality of the fighters, this is FLAWLESS INVINCIBLE JOE LOUIS!!!

[Slimey Limey]

Sorry but I'll favor Eddie Futch's opinion over yours any day. You simply cant understand boxing strategy because you have never fought. Your opinion has an agenda and is "armchair" best.

1. While Ali is the fastest heavyweight ever, Louis was nearly as fast with his hands. Ali’s many tactical mistakes would leave him open to one of Louis lightning-like strikes. His foot-speed and jab would be negated by Louis properly placed right parrying hand. Louis would render ineffective Ali’s primary weapon, his left jab, and drive him to the ropes vis-a-vis Ken Norton.

2. Ali was a master of strategy against slow handed bruisers like Liston, Terrell, Foreman, and Shavers. He had more trouble with men with hand speed who could punch with him like Doug Jones, Norton, and Jimmy Young. Louis was superior in hand speed to any of these men. With the previously outlined strategy, which Blackburn and Joe would be sure to implement, Louis would not be at a strategic disadvantage against Ali.

3. Ali had a great chin, but he was not a diety. Nat Fleischer rated Joe Louis as the greatest finisher in ring history. Consider that Joe Frazier had Ali in serious trouble and he did not have Louis speed of delivery, combination punching ability, nor was he as deadly a finisher. Had it been Joe Louis he would have kayoed Ali in the first Frazier first fight, and also in the third. Liston, Foreman and Shavers were big punchers but slow of hand, and could not carry on a sustained assault for 15 rounds. Louis definitely would not tire and he was a more explosive and sharper puncher in the mold of a young Mike Tyson. Louis had real shock value in his punches. Ali’s chin would have its greatest test not against Frazier or Foreman but against Joe Louis.

4. Ali was never beaten until a 3-year lay-off, but it was still close to his physical prime he was less than 2 months removed from his 29th birthday. Some would say he lost to Doug Jones, and he was nearly kayoed by Cooper so his unbeaten streak is not without tarnish. In comparing Ali when he retired at age 36 after beating Spinks his record was 56-3 with 37 kayos. Louis when he retired as champion at age 35 was 60-1 with 51 kayos. Louis also lost four of his best years due to WW2 just as Ali lost 3 ½ years in his forced exile. Overall Ali faced the better competition, but Max Schmeling (a first rate counter-puncher), Max Baer (one of the hardest hitters in division history), Arturo Godoy (never knocked off his feet in his first 70 pro fights), and Jersey Joe Walcott (one of the slickest boxer-punchers of all time) are better than anyone that Ali faced during his prime years, with the exception of Sonny Liston. Both Ali and Louis were dominant champions.

Ali had a slight edge in size over Joe. Ali was 6’3” 212 pounds in his prime, and had an 80-inch reach. Louis was 6’1 ½”, and about 207, his best weight in his rematches against Buddy Baer and Abe Simon. Louis had a 76” reach. Louis height and reach is about the same as Evander Holyfield. Frazier was 205 in the first Ali-Frazier fight, so any physical advantage is void. Joe Louis had the hand speed, the jab, the power, the stamina, the ring smarts and the style to defeat Muhammad Ali. Joe Louis is the one man who would knock Muhammad Ali out!

Oh I see, the old "you never fought!!" argument and then a copy paste job from an expert who had an opinion, which the majority of experts would disagree with.

Ali and Holmes were 2 of the slickest boxers ever. Louis had a lot of trouble with slick boxers(Walcott, Conn, Schmeling and so on). They had great movement, something the slow plodding Louis lacked. They had longer accurate jabs, which Louis had trouble with. They had 2 of the fastest counter right hands ever, which would have found home considering Louis' lazy arse low left hand.
And on and on and on.

Yet SUPERMAN LOUIS is gonna beat all of them according to the second biggest Louis nutgrabber Jabbie. Forget styles mismatches, quality of the fighters, this is FLAWLESS INVINCIBLE JOE LOUIS!!!

[JAB5239]

Oh I see, the old "you never fought!!" argument and then a copy paste job from an expert who had an opinion, which the majority of experts would disagree with.

Eddie Futch is as leading an expert as has ever been on Ali. I'll take the word of a man who actually devised strategies that beat Ali with much lesser fighters than Joe Louis over the half assed opinion of someone who has never fought before and goes to extreme lengths to discredit Louis every chance she gets.

Ali and Holmes were 2 of the slickest boxers ever. Louis had a lot of trouble with slick boxers(Walcott, Conn, Schmeling and so on). They had great movement, something the slow plodding Louis lacked. They had longer accurate jabs, which Louis had trouble with. They had 2 of the fastest counter right hands ever, which would have found home considering Louis' lazy arse low left hand.
And on and on and on.

Its amusing how you like to focus on one fighters shortcomings while ignoring those of the fighters he has been matched with. Very telling.

Yet SUPERMAN LOUIS is gonna beat all of them according to the second biggest Louis nutgrabber Jabbie. Forget styles mismatches, quality of the fighters, this is FLAWLESS INVINCIBLE JOE LOUIS!!!

Nope, not flawless nor invincible, but still the greatest heavyweight ever in MY opinion.

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE]

** Interesting idea, but I thought everyone had a gentleman's agreement to disagree on boxrec ratings.

Taking the ratings at face value, I have problems with these results:

2. Joe Louis vs 63. Ron Lyle Louis by Tko
4. Floyd Patterson vs 61. Bob Satterfield Patterson by Tko
7. Larry Holmes vs 58. Tony Galento Holmes Tko
8. Sam Langford vs 57 Oscar Bonavena Langford UD
10. Marciano vs 55. Frank Bruno Marciano UD
12. Lennox Lewis vs 53. Jimmy Young Lewis by MD
16. Jimmy Bivins vs 49.Joe Bugner Bivins UD
18. Jack Sharkey vs 47. Tom Sharkey 47 Tom Sharkey by SD
21. Ingamar Johanson vs 44. Jimmy Ellis Ellis by UD
27. Jersey Joe Walcott vs 38. Gerrie Coetzee Walcott by UD
30. Henry Cooper vs 35. Gus Ruhlin Ruhlin by TD

In general it's quite possible the above could play out, but if I was a major player, I might well take the odds on your underdog in the above. The reasoning:

Lyle an decent boxer and ferocious slugger. If he got Louis down which wasn't hard to do, he's gonna make sure he stays there.

In my opinion Louis' power and pinpoint accuracy seals the deal here. Guys who stood in front of Joe got destroyed.

Satterfield was a much more ferocious puncher than Floyd and a decent boxer. If Rademacher and others can drop Floyd, Floyd will stay down if if Bob gets him.

Its possible, but I still like Floyd.

Same deal with Holmes who lacks firepower to do more than maybe slice Galento up. Out of a crouch with a wreckerball left, Tony could fight and maybe put Holmes away. He ain't goin' the way of the weaker Snipes, Weaver, and Shavers.

I like Holmes to get the stoppage whether by cuts or accumulation.

Bonavena won't be KOed by Langford and will be bigger/stronger and muscling him around like you wouldn't believe. His style would be very judge friendly in Sam's day, so a man who is one of two to ever drop Joe Frazier sure does have a chance to beat Sam as much as I hate to say.

You may have a point here, but Sam did beat better heavies than Ringo.

Rocky never beat a massive heavy of the class of Bruno. Guy was a good boxer who doesn't have to worry about speed and reach of Rocky.

At the same time. did Bruno ever beat anybody who wouldn't bow to his will?

Jimmy Young against Foreman would beat Lewis easier. Lewis won't outbox him and will lose heart trying to make up points late.

100% disagree my friend. The best of Lennox was a much better fighter that young Foreman and with better stamina.

Bugner is too big, strong, and too good to lose to Bivins who was an excellent LH sized fighter.

This seems to be the consensus among those who have brought it up. This I will have to reevaluate.

Ol' Tom a tough ol' bird in his day, but he ain't beatin' prime Jack Sharkey, sorry.

This is a tough fight either way. I am interested in hearing why you would pick jack over Tom

I'd pick Ingo's bingo over Ellis any day. Ingo was the first ever to beat Machen as I recall, and Ellis was never better than Machen on a best to best comparison.

I like Ellis to stay o the outside and pick Ingo apart. Jmo, of course.

[LondonRingRules]

Using boxrecs top 64 heavyweights all time I've formed tournament. Agree or disagree?

** Interesting idea, but I thought everyone had a gentleman's agreement to disagree on boxrec ratings.

Taking the ratings at face value, I have problems with these results:

2. Joe Louis vs 63. Ron Lyle Louis by Tko
4. Floyd Patterson vs 61. Bob Satterfield Patterson by Tko
7. Larry Holmes vs 58. Tony Galento Holmes Tko
8. Sam Langford vs 57 Oscar Bonavena Langford UD
10. Marciano vs 55. Frank Bruno Marciano UD
12. Lennox Lewis vs 53. Jimmy Young Lewis by MD
16. Jimmy Bivins vs 49.Joe Bugner Bivins UD
18. Jack Sharkey vs 47. Tom Sharkey 47 Tom Sharkey by SD
21. Ingamar Johanson vs 44. Jimmy Ellis Ellis by UD
27. Jersey Joe Walcott vs 38. Gerrie Coetzee Walcott by UD
30. Henry Cooper vs 35. Gus Ruhlin Ruhlin by TD

In general it's quite possible the above could play out, but if I was a major player, I might well take the odds on your underdog in the above. The reasoning:

Lyle an decent boxer and ferocious slugger. If he got Louis down which wasn't hard to do, he's gonna make sure he stays there.

Satterfield was a much more ferocious puncher than Floyd and a decent boxer. If Rademacher and others can drop Floyd, Floyd will stay down if if Bob gets him.

Same deal with Holmes who lacks firepower to do more than maybe slice Galento up. Out of a crouch with a wreckerball left, Tony could fight and maybe put Holmes away. He ain't goin' the way of the weaker Snipes, Weaver, and Shavers.

Bonavena won't be KOed by Langford and will be bigger/stronger and muscling him around like you wouldn't believe. His style would be very judge friendly in Sam's day, so a man who is one of two to ever drop Joe Frazier sure does have a chance to beat Sam as much as I hate to say.
Rocky never beat a massive heavy of the class of Bruno. Guy was a good boxer who doesn't have to worry about speed and reach of Rocky.

Jimmy Young against Foreman would beat Lewis easier. Lewis won't outbox him and will lose heart trying to make up points late.

Bugner is too big, strong, and too good to lose to Bivins who was an excellent LH sized fighter.

Ol' Tom a tough ol' bird in his day, but he ain't beatin' prime Jack Sharkey, sorry.

I'd pick Ingo's bingo over Ellis any day. Ingo was the first ever to beat Machen as I recall, and Ellis was never better than Machen on a best to best comparison.

Coetzee/Walcott could go either way. Gerrie a good boxer puncher and Walcott not enough power to KO Gerrie who is very underrated down to being a South African. I'd favor the younger Gerrie.

Ol' Gus a tough customer, but guaranteed, he'll get KOed if Sir'enry lands his left hook. Maybe Gus can brawl and get a cut stoppage, but not a given.

[Slimey Limey]

Hahahaha. Still as biased as ever huh Jabbie. You don't even try to hide it anymore/. It was ok untill you kept letting Louis bumbeater winning. Holmes and Ali would box circles around him and KO him. It would be a terrible styles mismatch.