The Time is Now: Who Could Handle Wlad in the Historical Pantheon?

[mickey malone]

Can't believe I tipped Audley Harrison to be an all time great Heavyweight.

Lol... Lot of people did... Especially Audley himself..
Don't worry... I had Hatton to KO Pac.. We all **** up..

[LondonRingRules]

i would put lewis, holmes, dempsey and vitali in there aswell.

** I wouldn't put Big Pants Lar in the above category. Guy never outclassed a prime great or truly talented contender save Cooney and many defenses against non top ten fighters.

In a styles/natural attributes match up, his strengths are over matched and he lacks the KO power the others had to put Wlad in trouble.

Wlad is one of the best outside fighters in history. The only outside fighters that could trouble him are Ali with his style, and speed of hand and foot, not the ropadope Ali who'd lose a wide decision, and a post McCall Lewis who's only terrible mistake was the first Rahman fight and maybe the Vitali fight. And of course Vitali would bother him.

Inside fighters would include Dempsey and Tyson. I give Tyson the best chance of all. Louis would have to be included here, but Wlad is not an attacking big man like he was used to dismantling, and I feel the Louis counter punching won't be as big a factor.

Foreman would be interesting, pure slugger in his first go, and boxer/puncher in his 2nd go, he really did a number on the best ever version of Holy and put him in retreat or hanging on for life in that fight. Since he never faced a big man his first go around, hard to know what his wide open style might accomplish against a better boxer/puncher than existed in his era, so I'd probably tip the 41 yr old George over the 24-25 yr old George as far as odds go.

Someone mentioned Bowe. No, he's mentally deficient, scared of Lewis, and fared poorly against Golota, the best big men of his era. He was lucky enough to catch Holy on the decline and was able to use his size over a little guy with all the punch steamed out of him.

I'd also include Primo in the mix. Guy is way underrated and a very aggressive fighter with a good chin always in great shape. Wlad wouldn't be able to muscle him around and he could put some good pressure on which I think is Wlad's greatest weakness. Tony Thompson boxed credibly and had some moments. Primo orthodox, but bigger and stronger than Tony would be in the hunt.

Someone mentioned Liston. On talent, Liston's in the hunt, but mentally, I think he folds against a big guy like Wlad. He was better suited beating up little guys he had obvious advantages on.

[RightCross94]

** I wouldn't put Big Pants Lar in the above category. Guy never outclassed a prime great or truly talented contender save Cooney and many defenses against non top ten fighters.

In a styles/natural attributes match up, his strengths are over matched and he lacks the KO power the others had to put Wlad in trouble.

Wlad is one of the best outside fighters in history. The only outside fighters that could trouble him are Ali with his style, and speed of hand and foot, not the ropadope Ali who'd lose a wide decision, and a post McCall Lewis who's only terrible mistake was the first Rahman fight and maybe the Vitali fight. And of course Vitali would bother him.

Inside fighters would include Dempsey and Tyson. I give Tyson the best chance of all. Louis would have to be included here, but Wlad is not an attacking big man like he was used to dismantling, and I feel the Louis counter punching won't be as big a factor.

Foreman would be interesting, pure slugger in his first go, and boxer/puncher in his 2nd go, he really did a number on the best ever version of Holy and put him in retreat or hanging on for life in that fight. Since he never faced a big man his first go around, hard to know what his wide open style might accomplish against a better boxer/puncher than existed in his era, so I'd probably tip the 41 yr old George over the 24-25 yr old George as far as odds go.

Someone mentioned Bowe. No, he's mentally deficient, scared of Lewis, and fared poorly against Golota, the best big men of his era. He was lucky enough to catch Holy on the decline and was able to use his size over a little guy with all the punch steamed out of him.

I'd also include Primo in the mix. Guy is way underrated and a very aggressive fighter with a good chin always in great shape. Wlad wouldn't be able to muscle him around and he could put some good pressure on which I think is Wlad's greatest weakness. Tony Thompson boxed credibly and had some moments. Primo orthodox, but bigger and stronger than Tony would be in the hunt.

Someone mentioned Liston. On talent, Liston's in the hunt, but mentally, I think he folds against a big guy like Wlad. He was better suited beating up little guys he had obvious advantages on.

wait so....primo carnera has a good chance vs wlad, but rid**** bowe and sonny liston and larry holmes dont
seriously what the ****

[Kid McCoy]

Someone mentioned Liston. On talent, Liston's in the hunt, but mentally, I think he folds against a big guy like Wlad. He was better suited beating up little guys he had obvious advantages on.

I don't see what you're basing that on. Against Ali, Liston was underprepared and retired with a legitimate injury, confirmed by his medical examination after the fight. As for the second, well I don't think that was on the level anyway. Nobody marks LaMotta down for "losing" to Billy Fox.

Aside from Ali, Liston did face some fairly big men in Williams, Valdes, Clark and Wepner and didn't crumble against any of them, and by all accounts gave as good as he got in sparring with Foreman. I'd give him a decent chance of beating Wlad.

Other than that, some interesting analysis.

[TheGreatA]

I don't see what you're basing that on. Against Ali, Liston was underprepared and retired with a legitimate injury, confirmed by his medical examination after the fight. As for the second, well I don't think that was on the level anyway. Nobody marks LaMotta down for "losing" to Billy Fox.

Aside from Ali, Liston did face some fairly big men in Williams, Valdes, Clark and Wepner and didn't crumble against any of them, and by all accounts gave as good as he got in sparring with Foreman. I'd give him a decent chance of beating Wlad.

Other than that, some interesting analysis.

The Cleveland Williams fights proved to me that Liston was like a man possessed in his pre-title days, willing to walk through bombs in order to win.

Eddie Machen also fought the perfect fight against him, slipping his jab and countering, yet Liston was able to adjust and outpoint Machen clearly in the late rounds despite the referee threatening to disqualify him.

In the end winning the title brought him nothing but more (bad) publicity and he practically gave it away.

[LondonRingRules]

I don't see what you're basing that on. Against Ali, Liston was underprepared and retired with a legitimate injury, confirmed by his medical examination after the fight. As for the second, well I don't think that was on the level anyway. Nobody marks LaMotta down for "losing" to Billy Fox.

Aside from Ali, Liston did face some fairly big men in Williams, Valdes, Clark and Wepner and didn't crumble against any of them, and by all accounts gave as good as he got in sparring with Foreman. I'd give him a decent chance of beating Wlad.

Other than that, some interesting analysis.

** Let's start with Williams, his first legit big man test, big man being relative to the day.

Cleve had never beat a ranked contender or fringe contender coming into that bout, his only significant bout being a KO loss to fringe Satterfield. Cleve not known for his boxing, basically does a number on Sonny in the early going, just picked him apart. Sonny was intimidated. Fairplay, he adjusts and finds the soft jaw of Cleve with a nothing looking left hook and the result a mere formality after that.

Liston had been groomed with a series against good prospects and gatekeeper types wasn't prepared for a big man, and Williams just a flea compared to the Klitschkos who's reputation would precede them.

Cleve a nice specimen physically with dangerous power, but the only win of note is a KO over Terrell several fights later who was still in an unformed state himself. Cleve gets touted over Roy Harris who at least put together back to back to back wins over Baker, Pastrano, and Besmonoff going into Patterson, better than any thing Cleve ever did.

Valdez was inconsistent and a spent force when Liston got him, Clark a journeyman, and Wepner a club fighter his spar partner George had taken care of as a novice, not legit threats.

As far as the Ali fights go, early on Liston makes a huge attempt on Ali probably because he was told that's where the money was. When it didn't work, he was told to stay on his stool after the betting was adjusted. I don't begrudge him for his choices given he was a mobbed fighter and getting up in years, and he had plenty of help throwing the 2nd fight.

The fights were never legit fair contests and not representative of Sonny at his best, but at his best he had significant physical advantages over his contemps save for Williams whom he had an advantage of a better chin and competition.

DeJohn, Machen, Williams, Harris and Folley is a good run at his best going into Floyd, but realistically, where would those guys rank in the heavy division today? Williams is the only legit heavy of the bunch and he about the size of Haye who's still struggling to enter the heavy ranks, a cruiser trying to grow himself into a heavy.

Here's Ring's current top 10: Who do you think Williams is gonna beat as a point of comparison of the eras?

CHAMPION: Wladimir Klitschko Country: Ukraine Record: 53-3-0 (47 KOs)Ranking: This Week: C | Last Week: #1 | Weeks On List: 213 Titles: WBO, IBF

1. Vitali Klitschko Country: Ukraine Record: 37-2-0 (36 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #1 | Last Week: #2 | Weeks On List: 37 Titles: WBC

2. Ruslan Chagaev Country: Germany Record: 25-0-1 (17 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #2 | Last Week: #3 | Weeks On List: 136

3. Alexander Povetkin Country: Russia Record: 17-0-0 (12 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #3 | Last Week: #4 | Weeks On List: 87

4. Nikolai Valuev Country: Russia Record: 50-1-0 (34 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #4 | Last Week: #5 | Weeks On List: 184 Titles: WBA

5. Eddie Chambers Country: USA (Philadelphia, Pa.) Record: 34-1-0 (18 KOs)Ranking: This Week:#5 | Last Week: #6 | Weeks On List: 13

6. Chris Arreola Country: USA (Riverside, Calif.) Record: 27-0-0 (24 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #6 | Last Week: #8 | Weeks On List: 14

7. Alexander Dimitrenko Country: Ukraine Record: 29-0-0 (19 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #7 | Last Week: #7 | Weeks On List: 32

8. David Haye Country: England (London) Record: 22-1-0 (21 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #8 | Last Week: #9 | Weeks On List: 14

9. John Ruiz Country: USA (Chelsea, Mass.) Record: 43-8-1 (29 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #9 | Last Week: #10 | Weeks On List: 13

10. Denis Boytsov

[mickey malone]

wait so....primo carnera has a good chance vs wlad, but rid**** bowe and sonny liston and larry holmes dont
seriously what the ****

Wow.... Guy was talking sense until that bit.... Right on!!!

[Davros?]

Ali, Foreman, Liston, Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson, Frazier, Dempsey, and Louis would all have a good chance against Wlad.

[TheGreatA]

** Let's start with Williams, his first legit big man test, big man being relative to the day.

I would call Mike DeJohn a big man for the era. Liston stopped him in 6 in the fight before facing Cleveland Williams the first time.

Bethea was also a 200+ lbs opponent, known for his durability. Liston knocked him out in one, the only time Bethea was ever stopped.

Cleve had never beat a ranked contender or fringe contender coming into that bout, his only significant bout being a KO loss to fringe Satterfield. Cleve not known for his boxing, basically does a number on Sonny in the early going, just picked him apart. Sonny was intimidated. Fairplay, he adjusts and finds the soft jaw of Cleve with a nothing looking left hook and the result a mere formality after that.

Cleveland had not fought great opposition but was already noted for his punching ability. Any man over 6'3, 210 lbs with the ability to throw six left hooks in quick succession is going to be a touted prospect.

Liston was not prepared for such an early onslaught and suffered a badly bleeding broken nose early on. Williams' exceptional combination of speed and power bothered him but he adjusted to Williams' attack and took the fight to him.

Williams was 20 years of age when he took on Satterfield on a short notice. I wouldn't hold this loss against him. Despite a "soft jaw" Liston was the only man to have Williams down during his peak years from 1957 to 1964.

Liston had been groomed with a series against good prospects and gatekeeper types wasn't prepared for a big man, and Williams just a flea compared to the Klitschkos who's reputation would precede them.

As I said earlier, he had already fought Mike DeJohn, Wayne Bethea, Johnny Summerlin. He was not prepared for Williams because of Williams' talents.

Corrie Sanders hadn't exactly beaten great fighters before facing Wladimir, he was also older and had been knocked out in his prime. Most people recognize his talents and potential which is why he was able to throw Wladimir off his game and actually knock him out.

Cleve a nice specimen physically with dangerous power, but the only win of note is a KO over Terrell several fights later who was still in an unformed state himself. Cleve gets touted over Roy Harris who at least put together back to back to back wins over Baker, Pastrano, and Besmonoff going into Patterson, better than any thing Cleve ever did.

Terrell went on a long string of wins after losing to Cleveland Williams. It was the only time anyone ever stopped Terrell aside from his last fight.

Most who have seen Williams' fights against Eddie Machen and the rematch against Terrell can say that he was a bit unlucky not to receive those decisions. The newspapers scored those fights for him.

He had finally acquired a promoter who could get him the big fights, with a third fight for Terrell's version of the world title ahead of him, before being shot to the stomach which should have by all means ended his career.

Valdez was inconsistent and a spent force when Liston got him, Clark a journeyman, and Wepner a club fighter his spar partner George had taken care of as a novice, not legit threats.

Legit criticism but Valdez was always a threat with his power and made quick work of Brian London in his last fight before being forced to retire due to an eye injury.

Clark was on a winning streak which included wins over Leotis Martin and Eddie Machen. He was ranked in the Ring Magazine top 10 at the time.

Wepner was always a tough customer, claimed to have never been knocked down before Ali yet Liston had put him down with a body blow.

The fights were never legit fair contests and not representative of Sonny at his best, but at his best he had significant physical advantages over his contemps save for Williams whom he had an advantage of a better chin and competition.

DeJohn, Machen, Williams, Harris and Folley is a good run at his best going into Floyd, but realistically, where would those guys rank in the heavy division today? Williams is the only legit heavy of the bunch and he about the size of Haye who's still struggling to enter the heavy ranks, a cruiser trying to grow himself into a heavy.

They were legit heavyweights then, always turned up in good shape and had the skills to compete with anybody.

Here's Ring's current top 10: Who do you think Williams is gonna beat as a point of comparison of the eras?

CHAMPION: Wladimir Klitschko Country: Ukraine Record: 53-3-0 (47 KOs)Ranking: This Week: C | Last Week: #1 | Weeks On List: 213 Titles: WBO, IBF

1. Vitali Klitschko Country: Ukraine Record: 37-2-0 (36 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #1 | Last Week: #2 | Weeks On List: 37 Titles: WBC

2. Ruslan Chagaev Country: Germany Record: 25-0-1 (17 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #2 | Last Week: #3 | Weeks On List: 136

3. Alexander Povetkin Country: Russia Record: 17-0-0 (12 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #3 | Last Week: #4 | Weeks On List: 87

4. Nikolai Valuev Country: Russia Record: 50-1-0 (34 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #4 | Last Week: #5 | Weeks On List: 184 Titles: WBA

5. Eddie Chambers Country: USA (Philadelphia, Pa.) Record: 34-1-0 (18 KOs)Ranking: This Week:#5 | Last Week: #6 | Weeks On List: 13

6. Chris Arreola Country: USA (Riverside, Calif.) Record: 27-0-0 (24 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #6 | Last Week: #8 | Weeks On List: 14

7. Alexander Dimitrenko Country: Ukraine Record: 29-0-0 (19 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #7 | Last Week: #7 | Weeks On List: 32

8. David Haye Country: England (London) Record: 22-1-0 (21 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #8 | Last Week: #9 | Weeks On List: 14

9. John Ruiz Country: USA (Chelsea, Mass.) Record: 43-8-1 (29 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #9 | Last Week: #10 | Weeks On List: 13

10. Denis Boytsov

Looking at the statistics of most of these fighters, most of them aren't any taller than 6'3 and weigh no more than 230 lbs.

The only super heavyweights out of them are the Klitschko brothers, Valuev and Dimitrenko. I don't rate Valuev, 46 year old, 6'2, 210 lb Holyfield beat him in my view and Dimitrenko hasn't proven himself against quality opposition. His big step up will be against Eddie Chambers, a skilled cruiserweight who carries 20 lbs of fat.

Chagaev, Povetkin, Chambers, Arreola, Haye, Ruiz and Boytsov aren't big heavyweights by any means. Might carry a bit more weight than Machen and Folley but one can question whether that extra weight actually does them any good, looking at some of their recent performances.







[IMG]http://img.***********.com/albums/v309/TheManchine/Avatarit/clevelandwilliams-1.jpg[/IMG]

[joe strong]

lewis,Tyson,prime Rahman,sanders,tua,prime maskaev,ruddock,,old & new foreman,prime Holyfield,bowe,Ali,holmes,witherspoon,prime mccall,ron lyle,ibeabuchi...other than chris Byrd he doesn't have that great of a resume.all the names I listed above would beat anyone wlad beat other than Byrd(who beat tua).lewis dominated tua but could take his best left hook & since wlads been down what 13 times it's safe to say he would take a tua left too well.