Why isnt Harry Wills....

[Kid McCoy]

Okay then, how many black heavies did Joe Louis fight coming up? Not many. Primo Carnera faced more, for comparison.

When was Dempsey meant to have faced McVea and Jeannette? They were as long in the tooth as Langford by the time Dempsey was a viable contender.

[Obama]

For whatever reason I can't see the post listed after my last one...

[glidesmack]

Most fighters from the 20s are almost completely overshadowed by jack dempsey. Much of this is fair - jack dempsey CREATED big time boxing in america, with the help of his promoters. he put on quite a show, however you feel about him.

[TheGreatA]

Dempsey should have faced Harry Wills, there's no question about that. He was the outstanding number 1 challenger at the time.

Wills however never blamed Dempsey and it should also be said that Wills himself was not intent on getting in the ring with some of the top contenders at the time.

Dempsey and Wills signing the contract for the fight which was eventually cancelled:

[TheGreatA]

Wills is often rated above McVea, Langford and Jeannette although he isn't talked about as much. BoxingScene consensus ATG heavyweight list had him included in the top 15.

[LondonRingRules]

Forget about title defenses. Titles weren't defended against Black people, we all get that. Doesn't excuse Dempsey prior to being Champion however. You mentioned all the Black fighters he fought, however, John Lester Johnson was the ONLY CREDIBLE opponent. The rest never beat anyone worthwhile in their entire careers, so how could they be credible? He fought 1 credible Black Heavyweight, and he drew with him.

Who were the other Black Heavyweights he could have fought besides Wills and Langford? Well let's see....

At the top of the list, Joe Jeanette and Sam McVea.

Further down the list, Jeff Clark, Jack Thompson, Tut Jackson, etc.

** Tellin' ya Obamy, need to swap out names with a more suitable nom de plume. I'm thinkin' GW Dummy is YOU.

Funny, but Jeff Clark never shows up in Jack's territory until Pueblo Colorado, Dec of 1915. Novice Dempsey almost a thousand miles away in Salt Lake City. Otherwise, when Jack first goes east and lands in NYC, Clark busy in his Panama phase dropping fights right and left against era contenders and journeymen. They don't cross regions until after Jack has been picked up by Kearns and become a top contender. However, I see he spends a lot of time in Greb's state, but no Greb, so guess Greb ducked him too, eh? I see Meehan, Gunboat Smith, and Jimmy Darcy whipped him, and does he ever beat Jack Thompson? Man, deserves the HOF just based on having to go up against a who's who's era contenders dozens of times.

Don't see Tut Jackson on Clark's record. Who ducked who? Well, given that the only Tut Jackson of note didn't start boxing until 1921, looks more like a brain infarction done tied up critical functions of your thinkin' apparatus. Guess the lot of them ducked ancient Archie Moore now, is that how it goes down in GW Dummy world?

Speaking of Thompson, pretty much the same deal with Clark. They don't cross regions until Dempsey is a contender.

Oh, and Southpooh, deary, I would never claim to be an expert on anything, but I do know that simply reciting the alphabet or ticking off your numbers don't mean you can read or write any better than GW Dummy. Jack's career was exclusively guided by Kearns once he signs Jack with later assistance from Rickard.

I could care less about how many little regional cheerleader publications you come up with hyperventilating over Greb fighting Dempsey. For every fight that ever got made in history featuring contenders, 10 get floated and shot down, boxing history 101, sweetie. Besides, Kearns never made a single match against any of Jack's hired help that I see, so tell Harry to just be happy all he was allowed stand in a queue to have his moment in the sun.

And Greb was not beating "all the best heavies" obviously, missing a book's worth of era heavies. He does have an excellent record in this period and I have no problems making him and Kid Norfolk as era contenders along with Wills, Gains, Loughran, Rosenbloom, ect that Dempsey doesn't fight, but Kearns had his reasons for not meeting Harry and the gang and it nothing to do with silly little sparring sessions or 8th grade fears of mean ol' bullies.

Jack was busy setting gate and attendance records, so Kearns and Rickard were doing their jobs in creating a financial juggernaut out of this untamed slugger out of the primordial West, or at least until Dempsey flew their nest to feather his own nest instead of theirs.

Heck, Willie Meehan was more deserving than Greb or the rest of those piffle you boys come up with. Since Jack met the man who tamed Greb, what are you really whining about? It was a promotional thing with Rickard who made Tunney into the heroic fighting Marine against the draft dodger Dempsey, brilliant stuff that the public snapped up in droves.

Have you dears done anything to keep Don King from doing worse? Of course not, you're too busy being clueless, but not glueless.

[Obama]

Dempsey should have faced Harry Wills, there's no question about that. He was the outstanding number 1 challenger at the time.

Wills however never blamed Dempsey and it should also be said that Wills himself was not intent on getting in the ring with some of the top contenders at the time.

Dempsey and Wills signing the contract for the fight which was eventually cancelled:

Say what? Wills beat more top notch fighters than nearly every Heavyweight save Ali and Louis. He beat elite fighters in Langford, Jeannette, McVea, and Fulton. He beat semi-elite fighters in Meehan, Norfolk, Firpo, and Weinert. He then beat good fighters in Sailor Grande, John Lester Johnson, Jeff Clark, Bill Tate, Jack Thompson, Bartley Madden, Floyd Johnson, Gunboat Smith, and Tut Jackson. You don't get much better than that. ****s ALLLLLLL over Dempsey's resume.

[Obama]

Okay then, how many black heavies did Joe Louis fight coming up? Not many. Primo Carnera faced more, for comparison.

When was Dempsey meant to have faced McVea and Jeannette? They were as long in the tooth as Langford by the time Dempsey was a viable contender.

For the record, Joe Louis EVENTUALLY fought 3 of the 4 best Black Heavyweights of his time. Walcott, Charles, and Bivins. He should get a lot of credit for fighting Walcott and Charles (win or lose) because they were still top notch while he was heavily faded. By the time he got to Bivins, both were washed up. Ideally, he should have fought Bivins back in the early 40s. Now, I don't really even know who to call the 4th best. I think two Light Heavyweights who dabbled in the HW division were better than any pure Heavyweight. There names would be John Henry Lewis and Archie Moore. Consequently, Louis did happen to fight Lewis, even if it was after he was going blind... Anyways, I consider John Henry Lewis better than Archie Moore AS A HEAVYWEIGHT.

[TheGreatA]

Say what? Wills beat more top notch fighters than nearly every Heavyweight save Ali and Louis. He beat elite fighters in Langford, Jeannette, McVea, and Fulton. He beat semi-elite fighters in Meehan, Norfolk, Firpo, and Weinert. He then beat good fighters in Sailor Grande, John Lester Johnson, Jeff Clark, Bill Tate, Jack Thompson, Bartley Madden, Floyd Johnson, Gunboat Smith, and Tut Jackson. You don't get much better than that. ****s ALLLLLLL over Dempsey's resume.

From the end of 1922 to 1926 he only fought 6 times, decisioning Luis Firpo and Bartley Madden, KO'ing Charley Weinert and Floyd Johnson. Madden and Johnson were not exactly highly regarded at the time with more losses than wins in recent bouts.

Wills was not interested in fighting Tommy Gibbons, George Godfrey and Gene Tunney. Offers were made but his manager turned them down.

This was only in the 1920's however when he had already earned his shot at the title and was beginning to get older. No one can criticize his overall resume.

[TheGreatA]

For the record, Joe Louis EVENTUALLY fought 3 of the 4 best Black Heavyweights of his time. Walcott, Charles, and Bivins. He should get a lot of credit for fighting Walcott and Charles (win or lose) because they were still top notch while he was heavily faded. By the time he got to Bivins, both were washed up. Ideally, he should have fought Bivins back in the early 40s. Now, I don't really even know who to call the 4th best. I think two Light Heavyweights who dabbled in the HW division were better than any pure Heavyweight. There names would be John Henry Lewis and Archie Moore. Consequently, Louis did happen to fight Lewis, even if it was after he was going blind... Anyways, I consider John Henry Lewis better than Archie Moore AS A HEAVYWEIGHT.

I wouldn't. Archie Moore was actually a very accomplished heavyweight with his overall record at the weight being 75 wins and only 3 losses (to Marciano, Patterson and Ali).

Lewis had notable wins over heavyweights Red Burman, Al Ettore and Johnny Risko but Moore had a much more extensive resume with wins over Nino Valdes, Bob Baker, Clarence Henry, Jimmy Bivins, Bob Satterfield, Alejandro Lavorante and others which once earned him the number 1 challenger rating at heavyweight.