Smokin' Joe's Legacy.

[ßringer]

The Ali-Frazier trilogy thread got me thinking about something I've pondered for awhile.....Joe Frazier was a great fighter, of that there is no doubt, but did the fact that he never avenged his losses hurt his standing in the pantheon of great heavyweights?

He was a 3-1 favorite against Big George and got obliterated and then got dismanted again in the rematch. He dropped the 2 of 3 to Ali.

Does this taint his legacy? Do you think he is rated higher than maybe he should be because of this?

I don't think the losses really hurt his legacy much, if at all. He lost to Muhammad Ali twice (arguably the greatest Heavyweight ever, and a top 10 ATG), and to Foreman twice (arguably one of the hardest punchers ever, and a top 10 ATG as well).

The one thing I think that hurts Joe's lecagy, is the relative short length of his career.

But when you factor in his arthritis problems, and the fact that he basically fought his entire career while nearly blind in one eye....I think he more than makes up for that on his own merits.

[Terry A]

Joe Frazier, besides being one of my very favorite fighters ever, has to be considered one of the elite heavyweights as well. Like Machine said, everybody lost to somebody, except for Marciano. His losses against Big George showed what a tremendous heart and desire he has. Do you know how much of a fighter's heart he has to have gotten up 6 times in the first Foreman fight! He stuck around with Ali in their 2nd and 3rd fights, keeping them close until the Manila fight was stopped.
Beating ali in 1971 was no easy feat. How many other heavyweights active right there would have been able to do that to Ali? Joe steamrolled everybody else in his division until he went to Kingston. He had a pretty good run until then. Plus, he was an Olympic Champion.

I don't think I would put him on the Mt Rushmore of all time heavyweights (top 4) but I for certain feel he belongs in the lower half of the all time top 10 heavyweights.

[Clegg]

One could argue that the second Foreman fight improves his legacy.

The fact that he wanted to rematch someone who had beaten him in such a brutal way speaks volumes about his heart, desire and fighting spirit (as does Manila). Also, it shows that he learned from the first fight and made adjustments to his style, which led to some success. This is notable as well because Frazier was very much past-prime at the time.

So I would agree that the initial losses hurt his legacy, but the outcome of the rematches do not IMO.

[Greatwhitehope]

I definately think the loss to Foreman hurt his legacy, styles make fights but it really showed Frazier as being a bit one dimensional, was in trouble early and didn't have a back up plan, to be fair though I don't think many people could come up with one after being smacked by Foreman.

As for the Ali fights I don't think they hurt him, the loss in the thrilla helped it if anything, he still fought an incredible fight and showed that he may well have been the unluckiest fighter to have been around at the same time as Ali. I think he would've beaten just about any other ATG heavyweight in that night.