Ike Williams

[Yogi]

Resume wise he is up there with the best. I rate Duran, Gans and Leonard ast tops all time at 135, but I would rank Williams higher than Pea and certainly higher than Mayweather at that weight. I might rate Carlos Ortiz or Tony Canzoneri higher, but I don't think I would anybody else.

I'm not a big fan of lists anymore, but that's about the way I see it...Leonard, Duran, Gans, Armstrong, Williams, Canzonerim and Ortiz are some of the greatest lightweights in history to me and always have been, and since I've only named seven or eight there, I might be inclined to "throw in" Whitaker's name in there to fill one of the bottom two (or three) positions in the top ten. Mayweather is needing not to apply.

[Yogi]

There footage of this?

Not that I'm aware of.

[wmute]

Resume wise he is up there with the best. I rate Duran, Gans and Leonard ast tops all time at 135, but I would rank Williams higher than Pea and certainly higher than Mayweather at that weight. I might rate Carlos Ortiz or Tony Canzoneri higher, but I don't think I would anybody else.

You say throw ''Mayweather and Whitaker in there'' Whitaker should be in there with the elite group, alongside Gans Leonard and Duran. Not just thrown in.(Forget about the round era's, Benny Leonard and Duran didn't fight in the same rounds era but they are still in the same elite group together)

Pernell was the first to unify the division, since the great Roberto Duran had left it. He made 8 defence's of his IBF Lightweight title and and made 6 defences of the undisputed crown. In his lightweight reign he beat 2 hall of famers in Azumah Nelson and Jose Luiz Ramirez. And was never properly defeated at the weight, his only loss was a complete robbery against Ramirez the first.

He also avoided no one at the weight, also beat good fighters such as Roger Mayweather,Greg Haugen,Freddie Pendleton, and Policarpo Diaz.

So to just say lets throw Whitaker and Mayweather in the mix, like they both were on the same level as lightweights and both achieved similat to each other, is a insult to Whitaker.(IF THATS WHAT YOU MENT)

As Mayweather's run as a lightweight is no were near Whiatker's and his run as Lightweight was decent and pretty medicore. He had 4 fights at the weight, one alot people thought he shound't of got against Jose Luis Castillo, he would beat Castillio again and then beat medicore contenders Victoriano Sosa and Phillip N'dou. He could of fought much better at the weight, and gave one of his worst performances at the weight.

And his lightweight days and reign shound't be mentioned alongside the likes of Duran's, Leonard, and Whitaker etc.

I'm not a big fan of lists anymore, but that's about the way I see it...Leonard, Duran, Gans, Armstrong, Williams, Canzonerim and Ortiz are some of the greatest lightweights in history to me and always have been, and since I've only named seven or eight there, I might be inclined to "throw in" Whitaker's name in there to fill one of the bottom two (or three) positions in the top ten. Mayweather is needing not to apply.

Considering Mayweather had 4 fights at 135, you guys would have figured I was not talking about resumes at 135, but rather effectiveness of the fighters mentioned.

So if you guys want to talk resumes, just drop Mayweather out and let me know if you think Ike measures up to Gans, Leonard, Duran and Pea.

I don't see Ortiz and Canzoneri on the level of these four, but please illuminate me on why you guys do.

Also what do you guys consider to be Armstrong most relevan weight class?

[JAB5239]

Considering Mayweather had 4 fights at 135, you guys would have figured I was not talking about resumes at 135, but rather effectiveness of the fighters mentioned.

So if you guys want to talk resumes, just drop Mayweather out and let me know if you think Ike measures up to Gans, Leonard, Duran and Pea.

My question to you my friend, would be how do you rate effectiveness with Floyd when he's only got one decent fighter under his belt at 135? The other 3 he fought in that class are ok, but nothing special in the biog picture. This is why at 135 Floyd dopesn't rate very high with me.

I don't see Ortiz and Canzoneri on the level of these four, but please illuminate me on why you guys do.

Both of them based on their resumes deserve mention with the best fighters ever at lightweight. I honestly haven't seen much of Canzoneri, but have no reason to doubt why he is always ranked among the best. Ortiz I have watched fight and he was a marvel. Peurto Rico's second greatest fighter to only Wilfredo Gomez.

Also what do you guys consider to be Armstrong most relevan weight class?

On paper I think its at welterweight, though its arguable he was a better fighter at 135.

[wmute]

On paper I think its at welterweight, though its arguable he was a better fighter at 135.

Mayweather The guy was effective in his longer stay at 130 and his short stays at 135-140. I don't feel like I am making some leap of faith in assuming he is effective at 135.
Thanks for pointing out a similar fact I overlooked about Armstrong, I will definitely have to reevaluate my 135 list. Moreover, since I am not talking about resumes but just what the fighter would be like, the 130 Mayweather would have been fighting at 135 in same day weigh-in era. Which begs another question until what age he would have been able to make 135 under those rules?

Remember I am thinking effectiveness not achievement:

Canzoneri I always left him out because of his losses to Barney Ross (0-2), but although I have seen footage of both fighters, I have never seen those two close (and supposedly great) fights! so I was not able to gauge the size disadvantage at which Canzoneri was fighting. This is one I might have to reevaluate.

Ortiz was a beauty to watch I agree, but similarly to the above case his close fights with Loi (1-2) cast some shadow in my eyes. Loi was a great fighter, which no one ever mentions and those fights took place at 140 (but Loi was certainly not a big man), but I am less inclined to give Ortiz the benefit of doubt I am giving to Canzoneri.

Note for that I don't degrade Canzoneri and Ortiz for their losses, but rather for having "met their master" so to speak as in someone who they could ultimately not overcome in a ring. They are still great fighters, but that would be why I put them a notch down (which I might want to reevaluate in Canzoneri's case).

[JAB5239]

This is without order, but here are the top 5 lightweights all time, and with little research at the moment, the bottom 5. Opinions?

Duran
Gans
Leonard
Ortiz
Williams

Montgomery
Luguna
Armstrong
Angott
Tendler

This is not a set in stone list, only a rough outline based on limited knowledge.

[BattlingNelson]

"I fought Bolanos three times. I defended the title against him three times. But the third fight, the third fight I fought the greatest fight I fought in my life. I felt like I could have fought forever. Jack Dempsey was the referee that night. I'd been beating (Bolanos) for 4 rounds, but the last punch was a right to the body. That's the last punch I hit him with. It was a right hand to the body. He went down slowly. He was as knocked out as any fighter ever was. That's the fight I would have bet my life on that I would have whipped any lightweight that ever lived that night, the last fight with Bolanos."

- said Ike Williams during an interview with Peter Heller in 1971

Whoa! Great stuff Yogi.

Williams was such a badass. It's my feeling that he doesn't get the credit that he perhaps deserves. He was a great fighter.

[Southpaw16BF]

Whoa! Great stuff Yogi.

Williams was such a badass. It's my feeling that he doesn't get the credit that he perhaps deserves. He was a great fighter.

I also agree, i feel Williams sometimes dosen't get the credit he deserves. When Machine first put this thread up no one replied for one reason or another, then i was browsing found it and replied on it and since then it has had lots of replies etc. Williams is a great fighter to talk about.

[BattlingNelson]

This is without order, but here are the top 5 lightweights all time, and with little research at the moment, the bottom 5. Opinions?

Duran
Gans
Leonard
Ortiz
Williams

Montgomery
Luguna
Armstrong
Angott
Tendler

This is not a set in stone list, only a rough outline based on limited knowledge.

It's so difficult to make those list especially when you do it all-time and even worse when it's p4p. doing it with presentday fighters is definetely a bit easier.

Boxrec has the LW's ranked like this:

1: Leonard
2: Ortiz
3: Duran
4: Gans
5: McFarland
6: Tendler
7: Canzoneri
8: Williams
9: De Jesus
10: Nelson

I'm not ashamed to admit that I dont know a lot about some of those, but that doesn't prevent me from critisizing

I think I'd have Gans and Leonard at 1 and 2. Not sure about the order. After that it gets a lot tougher...... Maybe Duran does deserve the no. 3 ranking after all although his many defenses was against less than stellar opposition. He did have longevity.

Then it could be Ortiz and Williams... Pheew it's difficult.......

[BattlingNelson]

I also agree, i feel Williams sometimes dosen't get the credit he deserves. When Machine first put this thread up no one replied for one reason or another, then i was browsing found it and replied on it and since then it has had lots of replies etc. Williams is a great fighter to talk about.

Indeed. Great vids from Manchine yet again. I've only seen the Beau Jack slaughter before this thread, but have read excellent accounts of his worth.