Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

To ThemApples (and others who enjoy trashing great heavies of yesteryear)

Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • To ThemApples (and others who enjoy trashing great heavies of yesteryear)

    Here is an excerpt from a great article from Cyberboxingzone that could have been written for you (by Mike Casey):

    So what do we hear about Rocky Marciano? Much of the same, nothing really new. Rocky was too small. He would never survive in the heavyweight division of today. His so-called tremendous punching power would have little effect on the giants of the present era, presumably not even on the porcelain chin of Wladimir Klitschko. Let us take a time out on that one, for we will discuss the topics of punching technique and relative weight in due course.

    It is probably fair to say that the principal criticism of Marciano is the quality of the opposition he faced in compiling that painfully irritating 49-0 record.

    “He fought a bunch of bums on the way up!” the critics cry. Well, I would question the word ‘bums’, but Rocky certainly wasn’t flattening top quality fighters in his apprenticeship as a young prospect. But just how many prospects ever did?

    George Foreman, one of my favourite fighters of the seventies, fed off inferior opposition throughout his entire career. The best men he beat before his decimation of Joe Frazier were Gregorio Peralta and George Chuvalo, who were hardly terrors of the division.

    Larry Holmes was similarly protected, as were Tyson, Joe Louis and many others. Since the year dot, it has been an essential policy of a good management team to keep a rough diamond in cotton wool until it is polished.

    Jack Dempsey protested wildly and quite justifiably in 1916 when his overly keen manager wanted to throw him in with Sam Langford. The Dempsey of that period was far too green for a man of Langford’s vast experience and would likely have taken a bad beating.

    But no part of Marciano’s career, it seems, is exempt from constructive or random abuse. He beat a fat boy in Don Cockell, while Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore plummeted at once from their lofty pedestals of old maestros to plain old men after crude Rocky had given them a bashing.

    Now let us consider some fair or unfair criticisms levelled at other heavyweight champions.

    Mike Tyson was found out as soon as guys like Buster Douglas and Evander Holyfield started hitting him back. Ditto Sonny Liston, who surrendered timidly against Muhammad Ali.

    Lennox Lewis got knocked spark out as a champion by two pedestrian fighters in Oliver McCall and Hassim Rahman, wasn’t always in the best shape, defeated a greatly faded Tyson and swung like a rank amateur in his lumbering swansong with Vitali Klitschko.

    Larry Holmes defended his title against a largely nondescript group of challengers, beat the shadow of Muhammad Ali and got himself into all kinds of trouble against Earnie Shavers, Mike Weaver and Renaldo Snipes.

    Ali cheapened the sport with his tacky showmanship, got away with murder with referees who became blind to his indiscretions and was the recipient of questionable decisions over Doug Jones, Jimmy Young and Ken Norton. Muhammad also came close to being knocked out by ‘little’ Henry Cooper.

    Joe Louis took a terrific beating from Max Schmeling, was a notoriously slow starter, had a suspect chin and was studiously steered clear of the dangerous black contenders of the day by shrewd old Chappie Blackburn.

    Jack Dempsey slaughtered a big lug in Jess Willard, worked overtime against a couple of little fellows in Georges Carpentier and Tommy Gibbons and never did entertain poor old Harry Wills.

    Jack Johnson got belted out by ageing Joe Choynski and then cynically embraced the colour line with open arms as soon as it worked in his favour.

    Jim Jeffries and Bob Fitzsimmons? Best we don’t even mention those guys. They were from the ice age and couldn’t have possibly been any good. Fitz was the template for Joe Gans by Joe’s own admission, but let us not spoil things with trivial details.

    You begin to see the mischievous pictures we can paint and the damage we can do if we choose to be smart guys and conveniently leave half the canvas unfilled.

    There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that the aforementioned fighters, for all their little *****s and failures, were the genuine masters of their eras and among the greatest men who have ever graced the boxing stage. So was Rocky Marciano.

  • #2
    Originally posted by PLATE View Post
    Here is an excerpt from a great article from Cyberboxingzone that could have been written for you (by Mike Casey):

    So what do we hear about Rocky Marciano? Much of the same, nothing really new. Rocky was too small. He would never survive in the heavyweight division of today. His so-called tremendous punching power would have little effect on the giants of the present era, presumably not even on the porcelain chin of Wladimir Klitschko. Let us take a time out on that one, for we will discuss the topics of punching technique and relative weight in due course.

    It is probably fair to say that the principal criticism of Marciano is the quality of the opposition he faced in compiling that painfully irritating 49-0 record.

    “He fought a bunch of bums on the way up!” the critics cry. Well, I would question the word ‘bums’, but Rocky certainly wasn’t flattening top quality fighters in his apprenticeship as a young prospect. But just how many prospects ever did?

    George Foreman, one of my favourite fighters of the seventies, fed off inferior opposition throughout his entire career. The best men he beat before his decimation of Joe Frazier were Gregorio Peralta and George Chuvalo, who were hardly terrors of the division.

    Larry Holmes was similarly protected, as were Tyson, Joe Louis and many others. Since the year dot, it has been an essential policy of a good management team to keep a rough diamond in cotton wool until it is polished.

    Jack Dempsey protested wildly and quite justifiably in 1916 when his overly keen manager wanted to throw him in with Sam Langford. The Dempsey of that period was far too green for a man of Langford’s vast experience and would likely have taken a bad beating.

    But no part of Marciano’s career, it seems, is exempt from constructive or random abuse. He beat a fat boy in Don Cockell, while Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore plummeted at once from their lofty pedestals of old maestros to plain old men after crude Rocky had given them a bashing.

    Now let us consider some fair or unfair criticisms levelled at other heavyweight champions.

    Mike Tyson was found out as soon as guys like Buster Douglas and Evander Holyfield started hitting him back. Ditto Sonny Liston, who surrendered timidly against Muhammad Ali.

    Lennox Lewis got knocked spark out as a champion by two pedestrian fighters in Oliver McCall and Hassim Rahman, wasn’t always in the best shape, defeated a greatly faded Tyson and swung like a rank amateur in his lumbering swansong with Vitali Klitschko.

    Larry Holmes defended his title against a largely nondescript group of challengers, beat the shadow of Muhammad Ali and got himself into all kinds of trouble against Earnie Shavers, Mike Weaver and Renaldo Snipes.

    Ali cheapened the sport with his tacky showmanship, got away with murder with referees who became blind to his indiscretions and was the recipient of questionable decisions over Doug Jones, Jimmy Young and Ken Norton. Muhammad also came close to being knocked out by ‘little’ Henry Cooper.

    Joe Louis took a terrific beating from Max Schmeling, was a notoriously slow starter, had a suspect chin and was studiously steered clear of the dangerous black contenders of the day by shrewd old Chappie Blackburn.

    Jack Dempsey slaughtered a big lug in Jess Willard, worked overtime against a couple of little fellows in Georges Carpentier and Tommy Gibbons and never did entertain poor old Harry Wills.

    Jack Johnson got belted out by ageing Joe Choynski and then cynically embraced the colour line with open arms as soon as it worked in his favour.

    Jim Jeffries and Bob Fitzsimmons? Best we don’t even mention those guys. They were from the ice age and couldn’t have possibly been any good. Fitz was the template for Joe Gans by Joe’s own admission, but let us not spoil things with trivial details.

    You begin to see the mischievous pictures we can paint and the damage we can do if we choose to be smart guys and conveniently leave half the canvas unfilled.

    There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that the aforementioned fighters, for all their little *****s and failures, were the genuine masters of their eras and among the greatest men who have ever graced the boxing stage. So was Rocky Marciano.

    I rip on rocky, thats about it - get a life. I could say the same about you trashing the fighters of today.


    I get this same **** from other posters when I don't back up Rocky or Dempsey, 2 overrated fighters.

    you are one of the worst rocky nuthugging delusional posters ever.

    My take on fights is a no BS take. I look at who beat who and how they looked in the ring. Rocky is slow as hell, beat old guys smaller than him on their way out.

    The 70's was the pinnacle of heavyweight boxing, this clown is answering his own questions. Foreman for example destroys top prime contenders. Rocky struggled with old men.
    Last edited by them_apples; 02-17-2009, 06:01 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Here is more of the same article:

      As the son of Marciano’s manager, Al Weill, Marty Weill spent a great chunk of his life within the steaming confines of Lou Stillman’s famous New York gym, where the permanently closed windows served to enhance the pungent combination of sweat and cigar smoke.

      Watching Marciano in his prime lingered in Marty’s memory. “Rocky weighed only 187 or 188lbs, but he was a tremendously strong puncher. He could paralyse an opponent with those punches. Watch the film and see how he wears down Ezzard Charles.

      “But Rocky was also a one punch fighter. If he tagged you, it was all over. There aren’t too many of those guys around today. He was one of the greatest champions and one of the greatest punchers ever.

      “Rocky came up in the time when a kid showed up at the gym hungry, in rags and wearing a pair of sneakers. He would fight anybody for five dollars, and if he didn’t put up a good fight, he didn’t get paid.”

      Joe Louis, with typical grace, was unstinting in his praise of Marciano. After bravely losing his 1951 fight to the upcoming Rocky, old Joe said, “Marciano hurt me every time he landed. He’s such a powerful puncher, he can hurt you by just hitting your arm. When he hits you in the ribs and body, you feel like sitting down for a rest. When you move forward against Marciano, you’re risking getting your block knocked off. That boy took me out with three punches. It took Max Schmeling a hundred. Of course, I was 22 back then but this Marciano is tough enough to beat anybody.”

      Jack Dempsey also rated Marciano one of the elite hitters and noticed a marked improvement after watching Rocky work out in 1949 and 1952. Said Jack, “In ’49, he fought from long range and used a looping right all the time. Now he fights in close and seems to have developed a good left hand. The Marciano right against Walcott in Philadelphia was a thing of artistic and scientific beauty and downright damage.”

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by PLATE View Post
        Here is more of the same article:

        As the son of Marciano’s manager, Al Weill, Marty Weill spent a great chunk of his life within the steaming confines of Lou Stillman’s famous New York gym, where the permanently closed windows served to enhance the pungent combination of sweat and cigar smoke.

        Watching Marciano in his prime lingered in Marty’s memory. “Rocky weighed only 187 or 188lbs, but he was a tremendously strong puncher. He could paralyse an opponent with those punches. Watch the film and see how he wears down Ezzard Charles.

        “But Rocky was also a one punch fighter. If he tagged you, it was all over. There aren’t too many of those guys around today. He was one of the greatest champions and one of the greatest punchers ever.

        “Rocky came up in the time when a kid showed up at the gym hungry, in rags and wearing a pair of sneakers. He would fight anybody for five dollars, and if he didn’t put up a good fight, he didn’t get paid.”

        Joe Louis, with typical grace, was unstinting in his praise of Marciano. After bravely losing his 1951 fight to the upcoming Rocky, old Joe said, “Marciano hurt me every time he landed. He’s such a powerful puncher, he can hurt you by just hitting your arm. When he hits you in the ribs and body, you feel like sitting down for a rest. When you move forward against Marciano, you’re risking getting your block knocked off. That boy took me out with three punches. It took Max Schmeling a hundred. Of course, I was 22 back then but this Marciano is tough enough to beat anybody.”

        Jack Dempsey also rated Marciano one of the elite hitters and noticed a marked improvement after watching Rocky work out in 1949 and 1952. Said Jack, “In ’49, he fought from long range and used a looping right all the time. Now he fights in close and seems to have developed a good left hand. The Marciano right against Walcott in Philadelphia was a thing of artistic and scientific beauty and downright damage.”
        an article praising Marciano, not hard to find. What does this prove?

        Comment


        • #5
          I've never read anything where he's "downed" old-time fighters in fact I've seen him post complimentary things about Joe Louis. Now, I've gone back and forth with him before on the subject of Marciano (and I'm not even a Marciano fan) but that's ONE fighter ffs. I've also gone back and forth with some Marciano nuthuggers (yes, there are a few out there) who think he can walk on water the way the Tyson nuthuggers think their boy can. In this case you're extrapolating from the particular to the general in taking criticism of ONE old-time fighter and expanding it to include ALL old-time fighters.

          Why pick a fight over this? There are plenty, and I mean PLENTY of posters here who rip any fighter to old to have fought on HBO. The bias against old-timers is thick in these here parts and you don't have to look very far to find
          the usual suspects.

          PS. There are a few people who have a bias against current fighters as well but there aren't that many and they aren't as vocal as anti-old-timer crowd.
          I have been accused of both despite the fact I've stated uncatagorically that there are great fighters to be found in ALL eras and no one era has cornered the market. I rip the current Heavyweight division not because it's "modern" but because it stinks right now. The Heavyweights go through
          peaks and valleys as far as the division's relative talent. It stinks now but that doesn't mean it will stink five years from now and, in fact, I consider the 90s the second greatest era in the division's history. At the same time, the 50s were a pretty weak era for Heavyweights; maybe somewhat better than today's offering but still pretty weak.

          Poet

          Comment


          • #6
            Marciano was a joke that is why sane people say this. I never seen Maricano throw a combination. Marciano was slow beyond slow. Marciano's best wins came against guys pushing 40, Marciano wasn't a heavyweight period so stop compaing him to heavyweights but everything else the person who made this thread I agree with.

            Comment

            Working...
            X
            TOP