Pacquiao's Rank Among Past Fillipinos

[DarchinyFAN]

Where does Manny among his own countrymen? Has he surpassed guys like....

Pancho Villa
Flash Elorde
Spedy Dado
Little Dado
Cerefino Garcia
Small Montana

[PLATE]

Yes, I think it's safe to say he's surpassed em all.

[Chups]

Number 1 since he defeated Morales.

[1SILVA]

Pacman

Where does Manny among his own countrymen? Has he surpassed guys like....

Pancho Villa
Flash Elorde
Spedy Dado
Little Dado
Cerefino Garcia
Small Montana

He is the greatest Philippino fighter of all-time, hands down

[JAB5239]

He is the greatest Philippino fighter of all-time, hands down

I probably lean towards Manny, but a very strong case can be made for Pancho Villa. At either 92-8-4 (boxrec) or 73-5-4 (IBHOF), depending on which sourceb you want to believe, Villa fought many of the great names from his era and won most of them. It should also be taken into consideration that he did all this by age 24 when he died. Very subjective, but it can be argued.

[KalboKO]

He's been the Filipino greatest of all time since he moved up in weight and beat Bererra. What he's accomplished since then have made him untouchable as far as Filipino boxing comparisons go. Elorde dominated his weigh division but couldn't win multiple titles. Poncho Villa probably wasn't even the best boxer in his weight division when he fought, so he didn't have the dominance Pacquiao has. BTW, Pacquiao also has to rank heads and shoulders above any Asian boxer as well. Unlike other Asian fighters Pacquiao won and kept titles outside of Asia. He's never been the beneficiary of hometown decisions like Thai, Japanese and Korean boxers are known to get. Try to get the Philippine based boxing journalists to agree about Pacquiao being the best though. We should appreciate him now, after he retires the shelves look pretty bare as far as future Pinoy world champions go.

[JAB5239]

He's been the Filipino greatest of all time since he moved up in weight and beat Bererra. What he's accomplished since then have made him untouchable as far as Filipino boxing comparisons go. Elorde dominated his weigh division but couldn't win multiple titles.

Not to discredit Manny, but like Mayweather he has benefitted from numorous weight divisions and multiple titles. Elorde was tops at 130 and 135 during his time, and almost won a featherweight championship over another all time great in saddler had it not been for cuts.

Poncho Villa probably wasn't even the best boxer in his weight division when he fought, so he didn't have the dominance Pacquiao has.

Probably? WTF kind of answer is that to put one fighter ahead of another? Do some homework.

BTW, Pacquiao also has to rank heads and shoulders above any Asian boxer as well. Unlike other Asian fighters Pacquiao won and kept titles outside of Asia. He's never been the beneficiary of hometown decisions like Thai, Japanese and Korean boxers are known to get. Try to get the Philippine based boxing journalists to agree about Pacquiao being the best though. We should appreciate him now, after he retires the shelves look pretty bare as far as future Pinoy world champions go.

All of this is subjective as well as arguable. To say he is head and shoulders above these other greats is just plain false and based on ignorance of boxing history. Pac may be the best of the lot, but that doesn't mean you know why.

[KalboKO]

Not to discredit Manny, but like Mayweather he has benefitted from numorous weight divisions and multiple titles. Elorde was tops at 130 and 135 during his time, and almost won a featherweight championship over another all time great in saddler had it not been for cuts.

Elorde was tops at 130. It was a new weight division and not only did he dominate it, he legitimized it. He couldn't beat Carlos Ortiz and never won the lightweight title. Manny may have had more organizations from which to pick and choose but he didn't have anymore weight divisions.

Poncho Villa probably wasn't even the best boxer in his weight division when he fought, so he didn't have the dominance Pacquiao has.

Probably? WTF kind of answer is that to put one fighter ahead of another? Do some homework.

Why kind of homework should i do? Poncho Villa was a great fighter, but he was probably not as good as Frankie Genaro who beat him a couple of times. Manny beat all of his rivals. Dominance of one's weight division and defeating his rivals certainly has to be a criteria in putting one fighter of one era over another fighter of another era. How do you decide your ranking? I've obviously done my homework.

All of this is subjective as well as arguable. To say he is head and shoulders above these other greats is just plain false and based on ignorance of boxing history. Pac may be the best of the lot, but that doesn't mean you know why.

So you tell me why? or why not? Instead of accusing me of ignorance on boxing history, refute what i said instead of attacking me ad hominem. What other Asian boxing champion has won almost all of his title fights outside of his country? Can you name one? Come on show me where I'm ignorant.

[JAB5239]

Elorde was tops at 130. It was a new weight division and not only did he dominate it, he legitimized it. He couldn't beat Carlos Ortiz and never won the lightweight title. Manny may have had more organizations from which to pick and choose but he didn't have anymore weight divisions.

130 was NOT a new division, and Carlos Ortiz is better than anyone Manny has faced. And are you seriously trying to tell me there were 17 weight classes in the 60's with 4 titles in each? Are you trying to say that doesn't effect competition?


Why kind of homework should i do? Poncho Villa was a great fighter, but he was probably not as good as Frankie Genaro who beat him a couple of times. Manny beat all of his rivals. Dominance of one's weight division and defeating his rivals certainly has to be a criteria in putting one fighter of one era over another fighter of another era. How do you decide your ranking? I've obviously done my homework.

We're talking about a guy who had over 100 fights by the time he was 24. do you not think its uncommon to find a fighter in a talent rich era who has got your number? I could name plenty of greats who would fall into that catagory.

Greatness is based on accomplishment. But all factors should be taken into account. You obviously think winning an ABC trinket is the equal of a true world title, I don't.

So you tell me why? or why not? Instead of accusing me of ignorance on boxing history, refute what i said instead of attacking me ad hominem. What other Asian boxing champion has won almost all of his title fights outside of his country? Can you name one? Come on show me where I'm ignorant.

Like I said, do some homework. You trying to tell me 130 was a new division in the 60's and Manny didn't have more weight classes as well as titles to choose from screams of ignorance.

Like I said, Im not trying to discredit Pacquiao, but he isn't "head and shoulders" better than some of these other guys either.

[KalboKO]

Unlike you, I'm going to address each of your points directly and with an answer, unlike your cheap debater's trick of answering a question with another question.

130 was NOT a new division, and Carlos Ortiz is better than anyone Manny has faced. And are you seriously trying to tell me there were 17 weight classes in the 60's with 4 titles in each? Are you trying to say that doesn't effect competition?

You are correct, it was not a new division in the 1960's. It had been around since the 1920's. However, like a lot of the "junior" division titles, this title had been vacant since the 1930's and wasn't recognized until Harold Gomez won it in 1959. Carlos Ortiz was better than Marco Antonio Barerra or Juan Manuel Marquez? Debatable but unlikely. Yes, all of those weight divisions spread out among several work ranking organizations does water down championship titles. I agree. But aside from Diaz, Manny didn't handpick opponents to win titles as he moved up in weight. Barerra was seen as the best featherweight when he beat him and Marquez was seen as the best junior lightweight when he beat him.

We're talking about a guy who had over 100 fights by the time he was 24. do you not think its uncommon to find a fighter in a talent rich era who has got your number? I could name plenty of greats who would fall into that catagory.

Yes, please name other all time greats and the person who had their number. Which fighter had Pacquiao's number? Maybe Marques comes the closest, but Pacquiao still won. That's why I would place him above Villa.

Greatness is based on accomplishment. But all factors should be taken into account. You obviously think winning an ABC trinket is the equal of a true world title, I don't.

Okay, let me ask you a question. What are all of these "factors" that you would take into account to compare boxers of different eras. Actually I don't think winning a alphabet title is the equivalent of a true world title. Manny has been know here in the Philippines as the "People's Champion" since he beat Barerra which was not for any of the sanctioned world titles. I wish you'd stop putting forward these strawman arguements.

Like I said, do some homework. You trying to tell me 130 was a new division in the 60's and Manny didn't have more weight classes as well as titles to choose from screams of ignorance.

Like I said, Im not trying to discredit Pacquiao, but he isn't "head and shoulders" better than some of these other guys either.

I answered your first point above. You seem to be better at judgemental name calling than providing evidence to back up your arguement. I say Pacquiao is "heads and shoulders" better than any other Asian boxer in history. I asked you this question:

What other Asian boxing champion has won almost all of his title fights outside of his country? Can you name one? Come on show me where I'm ignorant.

Well? I didn't think so.