Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Carlos Monzon

[phallus]

Styles make fights, while Robinson's peak may not have been at middleweight, he was still a force there, especially pre-layoff, I think the Robinson that beat LaMotta in their sixth and final fight would have had a genuine chance of beating Monzon, if Robinson can neutralize Monzon's jab with his movement and slide inside to do some work he could win, Monzon wasn't a great inside fighter.

i've watched SRR against joey maxim several times, and i know maxim was alot slower than monzon and not as good as monzon but the way he just stupefied joey with his footwork makes me think he could do something similar with monzon. i think carlos is better at cutting off the ring than maxim, and is faster but i also could see ray rob dancing around and popping off combos on the inside. robinson was a welter in his prime but he should have won the 175 lb belt also if it weren't for the extreme heat

[Silencers]

i've watched SRR against joey maxim several times, and i know maxim was alot slower than monzon and not as good as monzon but the way he just stupefied joey with his footwork makes me think he could do something similar with monzon. i think carlos is better at cutting off the ring than maxim, and is faster but i also could see ray rob dancing around and popping off combos on the inside. robinson was a welter in his prime but he should have won the 175 lb belt also if it weren't for the extreme heat

Yeah, he was outboxing Maxim pretty handily until the heat caught up to him, Maxim was also leaning into him in the clinches, it was a good tactic considering he was about 15 pounds heavier.

Anyways, I agree. I think if Robinson could use his movement to get away from Monzon's jab than throw his combinations he'd be able to win, Monzon didn't have the fastest feet either.

[Miburo]

I don't know about this one, Monzon was antimatter in the ring; I think he'd find a way to neutralize Robinson.

[Kid McCoy]

Yeah, he was outboxing Maxim pretty handily until the heat caught up to him, Maxim was also leaning into him in the clinches, it was a good tactic considering he was about 15 pounds heavier.

As Maxim always said after that fight, "do they think I had air conditioning in my corner?" I know Ray was winning, but as you say Maxim was using his weight in the clinches and the heavier man's blows were also taking their toll. Ray never fought a top light-heavy again after that.

This fight is by no means a gimme for Monzon. I think his template would be the same as the Napoles fight: use his jab to keep the fight on the outside and keep his opponent off balance. The key issue is whether Robinson could penetrate that jab, and if he could, he'd find a guy who was faster and slicker than he looked, strong in the clinches and good at tying his man up. He'd be taking punishment every time he tried to get inside. There's a good reason why he was unbeaten in his last 80 fights, and I think he'd be too much for the smaller Robinson.

[Silencers]

As Maxim always said after that fight, "do they think I had air conditioning in my corner?" I know Ray was winning, but as you say Maxim was using his weight in the clinches and the heavier man's blows were also taking their toll. Ray never fought a top light-heavy again after that.

This fight is by no means a gimme for Monzon. I think his template would be the same as the Napoles fight: use his jab to keep the fight on the outside and keep his opponent off balance. The key issue is whether Robinson could penetrate that jab, and if he could, he'd find a guy who was faster and slicker than he looked, strong in the clinches and good at tying his man up. He'd be taking punishment every time he tried to get inside. There's a good reason why he was unbeaten in his last 80 fights, and I think he'd be too much for the smaller Robinson.

Yeah, it was a good tactic, he could get to Robinson on the outside but was doing some good work in the clinches on the inside, he just wore the smaller man down, the heat worked in his favor obviously, Robinson was doing all the moving and he was getting leaned on in the clinches by a bigger man. Very true quote from Maxim.

I agree with you, Robinson would have to take away the jab from Monzon, which was his best weapon, he has one of the more underrated jabs in history, everything he did came behind that jab and no one could get past it effectively enough to beat him. Robinson was a better fighter than Napoles at middleweight though in my opinion, his movement was better pre-layoff, he obviously lost a step or two after his layoff. You bring up a very good point though, Monzon was very good at smothering his opponents and tying them up on the inside and then pushing them back to the range he wants them to be. As I said earlier, I think it would depend on whether Robinson can take away Monzon's jab, if Monzon can get his jab going and fight his fight, it would be a pretty long night for Robinson.

[Southpaw16BF]

This would be a classic match up, Ray was very good middleweight, he had brillants wins over Lamottax4,Rocky Graziano,Gene Fullmer,Carmen Basilio, and more and was a 5 time champion,And Monzon was a outstanding Middlweight unbeaten at the weight for 13 years, never losing his title retired champion making 14 defences of his title with victories over the likes Rodrigo Valdezx2,Jose Napoles,Emile Griffithx2,Bennie Briscoe,Nino Benvenutix2. Now with both boxers styles being so different Robinson with his brillant footwork, movement, combination punching, and boxing brain, vs Monzon's 6'2 frame, and his frekish strenghth, and his abilty to get stronger as the rounds wore on, and also his unbreakable will. Both had great chins also.So my prediction would have to be if both turned up in great shape and Monzon did not have to drain himslef weight cutting, a Monzon UD win. This being even do Ray was a great middlweight and think Monzon was a better one, yes ray did win the title 5 times but that also means he lost it five times to Turpin,Fullmer, Basilio,Pender,and once giving up to go to light heavyweight and Ray's best was welterweight.So i think both men come and the first couple of round are pretty even with robinson using footwork and movement to edge out Mozon, but as the fights were's on Mozon gets stronger and as ray starts to tire Monzon applys more pressure even buckling Ray a few times to a UD.

[StarshipTrooper]

At Middleweight Ray wasn't what he was at Welterweight but he was still better than anyone else. Robinson by wide decision.

Poet

[KJB]

As Maxim always said after that fight, "do they think I had air conditioning in my corner?" I know Ray was winning, but as you say Maxim was using his weight in the clinches and the heavier man's blows were also taking their toll. Ray never fought a top light-heavy again after that.

Yeah but I dont see how withstanding ungodly heat should come into play when deciding who the better fighter is. Everyone saw Ray beating Maxim up, Maxim dealt with the heat better, but he was a lot less active. In no way does that make him better than SRR, at LHW or otherwise.

[StarshipTrooper]

Yeah but I dont see how withstanding ungodly heat should come into play when deciding who the better fighter is. Everyone saw Ray beating Maxim up, Maxim dealt with the heat better, but he was a lot less active. In no way does that make him better than SRR, at LHW or otherwise.

Some people can handle ungodly heat better than others. I'm no paragorm of fitness but I'm not overweight either; but I've seen absolutely obese dudes handle a 100 degree day with no problem while I'm pole-axed with heat stroke.

Poet

[Kid McCoy]

Yeah but I dont see how withstanding ungodly heat should come into play when deciding who the better fighter is. Everyone saw Ray beating Maxim up, Maxim dealt with the heat better, but he was a lot less active. In no way does that make him better than SRR, at LHW or otherwise.

I never said Maxim was better than Robinson, as Robinson was clearly the winning the fight. The point of Maxim's quote was that people often overlook that the conditions were the same for both fighters. Maxim paced himself better, and proved to be more heat-resistant than Ray. That being said, I've often wondered whether deep down Ray realised he'd overreached himself at light-heavy. He never chased Maxim for a rematch or took on other top light-heavies of the era. That's the point I was getting at wrt to the Monzon fight.