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what do you think of Sugar Ray Leonard?

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  • #81
    Originally posted by TheEvilSaint
    AND he moved up in weight to blatantly avoid fighting aaron pryor.
    ...and did whatever he could to make sure he never faced Benitez or Hearns or Hagler ever again...and that he never faced McCallum at all...and that when he faced Duran he used his million-dollar clout to hurry the fight date so that a 200#-plus partying-like-Maradona Duran had just weeks to lose 50-pounds ("no mas"="no gas")

    ...And they called Bill Clinton "slick".

    In addition to the type of judges characteristic of the Hagler and Hearns II tragedies , ole' RL always had referees ready to jump in and call TKO's in his favor on the basis of hand-speed-demonstrating patty-cake flurries that packed surprisingly little damage. Watch his "stoppages" of Kalule and Benitez and Hearns and you see what I mean...Contrast that to when Hearns or Hagler stopped you--you woke up somewhere else.

    Most things considered, I rate him AT BEST on par with Hearns as an all-time Welter (but not p4p) greats...both below Armstrong (who also belongs high on any sensible p4p list) , of course. But when you include a serious comparison of these two on the basis of "durability" and "work-ethic" demonstrated throughout their careers, The Hit Man whips his over-rated, overly-helped- by-officiating, manipulative, guest-starring ass.

    Now add in the "entertainment" factor. Hearns--when confronted by that all-time p4p monster, Hagler (that NEITHER of the really belonged in the ring with), gave us 9 of the most entertaining minutes in the history of the game. "*****" Ray Leonard's manipulation of the fight configuration gave us a goddam running track so Leonard could AVOID fighting...giving us 36 of the most painful minutes in the game. He either patty-cake "flurried" to "steal" rounds or ran or clinched like Ruiz does now. (Watch all 3 of the Duran "classics" and you see almost as much clinching initiated by RL as we get pissed off at Ruiz for...compare that to how Hearns attacked the same foe.)

    (BTW, LW-Duran is an all-time p4p great...but the welter-Duran was a way-past-prime blown-up version looking for some serious paydays--way more attractive to *****-Ray to come out of retirement for than giving well-deserved rematches to either Benitez or Hearns. Max $$$/minimum risk. And after he properly lost the decision...and found out how out of shape "Hands of Stone" had become in the time after the fight, he took full advantage of his marketing clout to swing the odds substantially, as I mentioned before.)

    So, LW-Duran and Hagler both deserve SUBSTANTIALLY higher placement than R.Leonard on any all-time p4p list...and Thomas Hearns deserves to be ranked AT LEAST as high on any all-time list (welter or p4P). Including "durability", "work ethic", "sustainability of career", and "downright entertainment value of his fights"--all IN-THE-RING criteria--sway it for the HitMan. Leonard has unfortunately and unfairly benefited from primarily OUTSIDE-THE-RING considerations in which he ruled supreme--"charisma" or "personality" or "marketability" issues--accounting for his "knee-jerk" inclusion high on p4p lists.

    Sad, isn't it that so many boxing fans are snowed by it. Even sadder for many now-forgotten true greats with vastly superior in-the-ring careers when Leonard is preferentially leap-frogged past them on the basis of his considerable outside-the-ring attributes. Too many hot-summer-night "stories" have been told on the porches over the last few decades by non-real-boxing-fan dads to their children and its burned an overly-intense image of this guy's greatness into our collective psyche. BUT the real boxing fan must make him stand in line where he belongs. In evaluating careers, we're right to marvel at "sizzle"...but not at the expense of the "steak".

    So, to summarize Ray Leonard's place in history, setting aside outside-the-ring "sizzle" and evaluating only on the basis of "inside-the-ring" steak.....He's clearly an all-time welter AT or BEHIND Hearns...but any p4p-list that puts him above Hagler or Duran...well, let's just say GWB could make a better case that Iraq was a serious threat to the USA's national security.

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    • #82
      Surgur ray lenord was a great fighter and also quick and talented like when he beat Marvin Hagler, he was on top of his game...

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      • #83
        Brilliant fighter, one of my all time fave's.

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        • #84
          i dont like leonard, but this is coming from a very big and very bitter marvin hagler fan.

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          • #85
            speed, agility, heart, lot of pop for a little guy

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            • #86
              one of the greatest, and his fights were great

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              • #87
                he had no choice but to be great. the greatest's (ali) trainer angelo dundee was leonard's trainer. it was a slam dunk!

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                • #88
                  Sugar Ray Leonard

                  SRL was a good fighter, although I can't stand his personality and his self obsorbing commentation.

                  As a fighter, without a doubt had skills, however when he fought
                  Hagler it was all fluff and showmanship. His clame to beating
                  Hagler was his ability to steal the limelight. He sure had Judge
                  Jose Guerro fooled (or so I assume), who scored the fight 118-110. At least Lou Filippo and Dave Moretti scored it close, respectively 113-115 and 115-113. SRL could not hurt the Marvelous One. In that fight SRL was more of an amateur than a
                  professional.

                  Thanks for listening!
                  Keep your hand up and your chin down!
                  SEB

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                  • #89
                    Hi everyone! some may know me from other forums. here I am KingAbdullah but i am really of Redrooster fame so you know there is no deception coming from me.

                    I may seem extreme but I bring up good points.

                    Too many people excuse him saying these things hapen. his fans give him too much slack. he is a talented fighter but I have seen better.

                    Question: why did he wait so long to fight Hagler?

                    Why so long to give Tommy and Duran rematches? Tommy was coming off his worst performance. Did anyone see his fight with Kinchen? he was dreadful!!

                    i'm sorry, but the timing of his fights with Tommy and marvin looks very su****ious to me with marvin already looking quite ragged in his previous performance and then retiring. Fighters don't retire unless they know they are unable to perform.

                    I just think he should have been straight with the public instead of throwing a fake retirement bash in 82, bringing Hagler in the ring just to tell everyone it wasn't going to happen.

                    What he should have done was stay retired or keep fighting. maybe hav a few tuenups and shoot for his old title.

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                    • #90
                      leonard fans had enough time but I have to think they couldn't come up with an answer that wouldn't be embarrassing to Leonard.

                      That means myself and the others who have a rather low opinion of leonard are right all along. I have this same problem at other forums.No one puts a decent debate to defend him.

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