what in your estimation prevents duran from being the greatest fighter whoever lived?

[Thread Stealer]

Poet ---- I have never tried to disrespect you, can we keep this civil. The ring, that is just one, I can point to many, Espn top 50 greatest, The ring etc... they are all subjective but it does point to how well respected so called experts rank fighters, and not on one poll has Duran beaten another top fighter than Leonard.

Again DURAN IS A ALL TIME GREAT. PERIOD! The debate is top all time, or even top 5-10. That is subjective and IMO he is not. In yours he is. I will respect that. I am only offering my opinion as why he is not.

I will argue that I point out factual points as to what he has and has not done, most Duran fans leave out a lot of important facts when discussing his career.

As for past prime. Hagler was not past his prime. If so, how can you account for him being his most impressive with ko's vs his best opposition, vs earlier in his career struggling with lessor opponents. Hmmmm No mention of his struggle vs Antefermo which I had him winning but it was still a good tussle, or Duran in 83. However he ko's tommy hearns, Mugabi, and Hamsho...has not lost in 10 years.. was well rested and I beg anyone on here to point to another fighter who was called past his prime when he was 32 and was in the middle of this type of streak. It is simply a attempt by leonard haters to discredit his fight with Hagler, They simply cant imagine leonard could come out of retirment and move up and beat hagler. Leonard by the way never said he saw hagler slipping, he said he saw hagler getting outboxed by Duran ( I guess Hagler was past his peak then too huh) and then by Mugabi, and he said he knows He could outbox Mugabi..so that is what he said....Just to correct people. he also told Mike trainer I think i can beat this guy......

Now for Hearns and benitez not being top 50, Benitez has been on some and not on others..I have not seen a poll where Hearns is not..So in any measure that is 3 top 50 fighters Leonard beat to one Duran beat, and his record vs that fighter is 1-2. Then his record vs the others is 0-2 or 0-3, however you want to look at it. Yes by the way, all of these fights happened by the age of 33.

Where Mayweather fits in, is a comparison of how ridicoulously weak Duran resume is at lightweight, where Duran beat hmmm Buchanon, Dejesus, Marcil, kYobahsi. Good fighters but not as good as Mayweather beat, or leoanrd beat, or Chavez beat, or others. That is a fair comparsion, espeically when Mayweather ( I would not call him gayweather unless your man enough to call it to his face, it is cowardly to get on a websit and talk tough, now isnt it?) moved up at the same age as Duran and beat better fighters (plural not just one fight ) than Duran did...I ask who basis are you going on that Duran is better. Hmm that he dominated the lightweight division and beat leonard. Very good, but is it more impressive than what Leonard did by beating hearns, hagler, benitez, Duran 2 out of 3. It is more impressive than Mayweather body of work. and when factoring in the 70 wins..I simply ask that you review the quality of those fights at lightweight, and compare it ....

I was actually watching ESPN Sportscentury's episode of Marvin Hagler, and this is off-base.

Leonard very clearly said he saw "Mugabi is a pure slugger, and he was outboxing Hagler". He said he ate dinner with Hagler and Hagler was saying he was losing motivation in the sport and everything was negative, and Leonard said "in the back of my mind, I'm thinking it's the perfect time to fight him".

I personally did not see Mugabi outboxing Hagler. Maybe Ray was seeing what he wanted to see. I saw Mugabi land some good shots, but also have his head get used as target practice for Hagler's right jab.

Hagler had slowed down some, but Leonard wasn't prime either. Hagler looked way sharper in earlier years. He always had good parrying skills and nice head movement, but was getting tagged more often as he was getting older, especially the Roldan and Mugabi fights.

I thought Leonard was at probably a bigger disadvantage however, as he was the smaller man, hadn't fought in 3 years, and just once in 5 years when he fought (and it was 6-6 on my card ) Hagler.

[Thread Stealer]

Is it fair to say that Duran should've given Buchanan a rematch?

Yes.

Buchanan is quoted in the Duran biography as saying he didn't think Duran personally ducked him, as he said he thought Duran would fight just about anyone, but Duran's management (Carlos Eleta) avoided a Buchanan rematch.

Eleta also vetoed some other possible Duran fights around the time (Ortiz, Cervantes).

[StarshipTrooper]

Poet ---- I have never tried to disrespect you, can we keep this civil. The ring, that is just one, I can point to many, Espn top 50 greatest, The ring etc... they are all subjective but it does point to how well respected so called experts rank fighters, and not on one poll has Duran beaten another top fighter than Leonard.

Again DURAN IS A ALL TIME GREAT. PERIOD! The debate is top all time, or even top 5-10. That is subjective and IMO he is not. In yours he is. I will respect that. I am only offering my opinion as why he is not.

I will argue that I point out factual points as to what he has and has not done, most Duran fans leave out a lot of important facts when discussing his career.

As for past prime. Hagler was not past his prime. If so, how can you account for him being his most impressive with ko's vs his best opposition, vs earlier in his career struggling with lessor opponents. Hmmmm No mention of his struggle vs Antefermo which I had him winning but it was still a good tussle, or Duran in 83. However he ko's tommy hearns, Mugabi, and Hamsho...has not lost in 10 years.. was well rested and I beg anyone on here to point to another fighter who was called past his prime when he was 32 and was in the middle of this type of streak. It is simply a attempt by leonard haters to discredit his fight with Hagler, They simply cant imagine leonard could come out of retirment and move up and beat hagler. Leonard by the way never said he saw hagler slipping, he said he saw hagler getting outboxed by Duran ( I guess Hagler was past his peak then too huh) and then by Mugabi, and he said he knows He could outbox Mugabi..so that is what he said....Just to correct people. he also told Mike trainer I think i can beat this guy......

Now for Hearns and benitez not being top 50, Benitez has been on some and not on others..I have not seen a poll where Hearns is not..So in any measure that is 3 top 50 fighters Leonard beat to one Duran beat, and his record vs that fighter is 1-2. Then his record vs the others is 0-2 or 0-3, however you want to look at it. Yes by the way, all of these fights happened by the age of 33.

Where Mayweather fits in, is a comparison of how ridicoulously weak Duran resume is at lightweight, where Duran beat hmmm Buchanon, Dejesus, Marcil, kYobahsi. Good fighters but not as good as Mayweather beat, or leoanrd beat, or Chavez beat, or others. That is a fair comparsion, espeically when Mayweather ( I would not call him gayweather unless your man enough to call it to his face, it is cowardly to get on a websit and talk tough, now isnt it?) moved up at the same age as Duran and beat better fighters (plural not just one fight ) than Duran did...I ask who basis are you going on that Duran is better. Hmm that he dominated the lightweight division and beat leonard. Very good, but is it more impressive than what Leonard did by beating hearns, hagler, benitez, Duran 2 out of 3. It is more impressive than Mayweather body of work. and when factoring in the 70 wins..I simply ask that you review the quality of those fights at lightweight, and compare it ....

When haven't I been civil? Other than showing my contempt for Gayweather of course: Who, incidently, I WOULD say it to him personally because I'd fully expet him to run like a thief like he did against De La Hoya.

As for Hearns being on any top 50 p4p list his chin alone should preclude it. Great fighter yes. Top 10 ATG Welterweight yes. Top 50 p4p? No way unless you first ingest copious quan****** of controlled substances. Some people think he was better than Leonard which is rediculous. Again, I don't put much stock in Ring magazine polls because they are consensus picks with too many different criteria being used by the individuals being canvassed. Any poll where there is no set standards for voting is worthless.

The Leonard fight was Hagler's last fight and he'd been slowing down for a number of years prior so I have no idea how he could NOT be considered past-prime. Leonard himself was coming off a long layoff and at no point in his comeback did he ever resemble the Leonard of the early 80s so I think it's clear HE was no longer in his prime either. How does Hagler's fight with Antoufermo have any bearing on whether he was past-prime in 1987? It was what, 6 years prior? Come on. So now we're back down to ONE top 50 opponent for Leonard. BTW, how many top 50 p4p opponents IN PRIME that Gayweather has fought? NO. De La Hoya was NOT in his prime so don't even try.

Poet

[wmute]

When haven't I been civil? Other than showing my contempt for Gayweather of course: Who, incidently, I WOULD say it to him personally because I'd fully expet him to run like a thief like he did against De La Hoya.

As for Hearns being on any top 50 p4p list his chin alone should preclude it. Great fighter yes. Top 10 ATG Welterweight yes. Top 50 p4p? No way unless you first ingest copious quan****** of controlled substances. Some people think he was better than Leonard which is rediculous. Again, I don't put much stock in Ring magazine polls because they are consensus picks with too many different criteria being used by the individuals being canvassed. Any poll where there is no set standards for voting is worthless.

The Leonard fight was Hagler's last fight and he'd been slowing down for a number of years prior so I have no idea how he could NOT be considered past-prime. Leonard himself was coming off a long layoff and at no point in his comeback did he ever resemble the Leonard of the early 80s so I think it's clear HE was no longer in his prime either. How does Hagler's fight with Antoufermo have any bearing on whether he was past-prime in 1987? It was what, 6 years prior? Come on. So now we're back down to ONE top 50 opponent for Leonard. BTW, how many top 50 p4p opponents IN PRIME that Gayweather has fought? NO. De La Hoya was NOT in his prime so don't even try.

Poet

sorry I missed that, but why again would you call the best fighter of this decade gay?

[StarshipTrooper]

sorry I missed that, but why again would you call the best fighter of this decade gay?

Hmmmm. Because I have contempt for him maybe? Best fighter of the decade? Over, say, Marco Antonio Barrera or maybe Manny Pacquiao? When the best fighter "Pretty Girl" Floyd beat was a past it De La Hoya? Please.

Poet

[wpink1]

Hmmmm. Because I have contempt for him maybe? Best fighter of the decade? Over, say, Marco Antonio Barrera or maybe Manny Pacquiao? When the best fighter "Pretty Girl" Floyd beat was a past it De La Hoya? Please.

Poet

Poet, your sounding like the McCain Palin ticket, just lying and disregarding the facts. You leave out all the very very good fighters he beat when he was at 130 and 135. Mayweather since his 10th professional fight has gotten in the ring with good to very good to great fighters, EACH TIME. Do I like him NO,,in fact HELL NO! But in a age where we routinely hype up Duran whose resume if freakin a joke when compared to Leonard and then Mayweather, correction resume of wins, as Duran has a resume but it lacks when asked the question if he won these fights. The answer is Duran ****** when you look at his resume vs top fighters..... How is this a all time top 5 fighter. Can anyone tell me factually FACTUALLY, what he did vs his best opponents to justify this. quit, got ko'd, etc.. Compare this to Mayweather who has not faced this leve of opposition but he has not lost either, and he did fight a past his prime dlh but he faced him at 154, which no one mentions this...the only fight Mayweather has ever fought up there. He also has beaten some very good welters. He has been a little wimp when it comes to fighting the best welters, and this I concur with the haterism of Mayweather, but Duran faced the best, and yes give him credit for that, but he was 1-4 vs them.

[wmute]

Hmmmm. Because I have contempt for him maybe? Best fighter of the decade? Over, say, Marco Antonio Barrera or maybe Manny Pacquiao? When the best fighter "Pretty Girl" Floyd beat was a past it De La Hoya? Please.

Poet

To the bold: easily.

dont be blinded by the fact that PBF is or at least acts like a jerk.

And the past his prime De La Hoya had more than 10lbs advantage, the ring, the gloves, everything he wanted. And that would not be PBF's best opponent (given DLH's age, the accolade should go to Corrales or Hatton.

Why do you have contempt for him?

[StarshipTrooper]

To the bold: easily.

dont be blinded by the fact that PBF is or at least acts like a jerk.

And the past his prime De La Hoya had more than 10lbs advantage, the ring, the gloves, everything he wanted. And that would not be PBF's best opponent (given DLH's age, the accolade should go to Corrales or Hatton.

Why do you have contempt for him?

I have contempt for him because he's an ******* that talks smack and doesn't back it up in the ring. When someone makes promises prior to fights I expect him to deliver on them. If he doesn't then he's nothing more than a loud-mouthed punk. That's what I consider Mayweather. It's simple: Either delivery on what you say or say nothing at all.

Poet

[wpink1]

I have contempt for him because he's an ******* that talks smack and doesn't back it up in the ring. When someone makes promises prior to fights I expect him to deliver on them. If he doesn't then he's nothing more than a loud-mouthed punk. That's what I consider Mayweather. It's simple: Either delivery on what you say or say nothing at all.

Poet

Poet then you would have contempt for Duran who many times said what he was going to do, especially to leonard in the rematch, and he ended up quitting. Same thing with Tyson, etc..in fact every fighter.

The fact is Mayweather has said he was going to win, and he won, vs fighters who have said they were going to win, and lose.

[C.Y.]

First off, it sounds like the standard is changing yet again. Is this top 50 p4p or is this based on a Ring magazine article? If it's the latter then the critera is all over board because it's a consenses of a dozen or more people polled each having their own ideas as to what factors count. Further more such things as "historical significance" and "cultural impact" are factored in: Hardly things that I would use to rate a fighter.

Second, Hearns and Benitez, as great as they were, were not top 50 p4p fighters. Hagler was, but, again, Leonard won a slim decision over Hagler after BOTH fighters were past prime. That brings me to my third point: YOU may factor the Hagler fight to Leonard's credit but I certainly don't. My opinion Leonard is based solely on his body of work as Welterweight where he beat Benitez, beat Hearns, and split with Duran. I do NOT factor anything negatively OR posisitively anything he did after he came out of retirement and fought past prime. This is hardly unfair. Mike Tyson is normally rated on what he did BEFORE he went to prison not after. Fair enough! When he got out of prison he was not the same fighter and clearly no longer in his prime.

Fourth, as to Chavez, he padded those 100+ wins by knocking over a LOT of local toughmen in Mexican bars; IE. precisely the kind of thing you're accusing Duran of.

Fifth. How the hell did Gayweather get brought into this? The only reason he gets rated on the entire body of his career is he retired WHILE HE WAS STILL IN IT! That's hardly a relevant example for this topic. So what of the others? Do YOU downgrade Armstrong because he lost to Robinson while past his prime? I don't. How about Robinson? You make a big deal about Robinson fighting in three divisions but boxing historians are practically unanimous in agreeing that Robinson was at his best at Welterweight. Additionally, I know of no boxing historian that detracts from Robinson because he lost to Joey Maxim in a bid for the Light-Heavy crown. Robinson lost MANY fights at the tail end of his career and nobody (that I know of) holds it against him.

Sixth. The only time a fighters past prime really impact is when someone some one does something extraordinary such as beat a fellow ATG when past prime. Ali beating Frazier and Foreman past prime is and example of this. This doesn't happen very often. In contrast, LOSING to a fellow ATG after your past your prime doesn't lower your standing: This is why losing to Holmes isn't held against Ali, losing to Tyson isn't held against Holmes, losing to Lewis isn't held against Tyson, and losing to RAY LEONARD isn't held against Hagler.

Poet

you have some good points, but why do you disrespect a fighter by calling him gay?
pink brought up mayweather to prove his points about duran's resume being overrated which i also believe is. i still have duran as an ATG of course and you can make the same argument for mayweather