In his prime Mike Tyson could have knocked out Joe Frazier

[mcentepede]

I like Frazier over Tyson in this crossover battle. A late ko for Frazier. Frazier has controlled aggression, and was known for his heart and stamina. Tyson might knock down Joe several times, but you all know Joe would get up every time. If Mike goes down, he does not get up.

[Boogie Nights]

Something that is grossly over looked is the fact that Frazier may have been out of shape and lacking motivation in the first Foreman fight. This is a guy who has fought around and under 200 lbs in most of his prime years and fought the best fight of his career at just 205. After the biggest win of his career, he took much more time than usual off while his weight suddenly ballooned up to 215 and over. Foreman may very well have always had the style and tools to bother Fraizer but it is food for thought. Others have cut Lewis slack for his weight against Rahman and Vitali, why not Fraizer?

Anyway, as I said before I still don't think it would be much of a stretch to compare this to Frazier/Quarry I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruurUEyy-A0

Before fading and getting injured, Quarry's pressure and quick combinations gave Frazier trouble early. Either Tyson finishes what Quarry couldn't in the early rounds or he fades and gets stopped in the later rounds where he would be outworked considerably.

are you implying that the reason frazier lost to foreman might have been joe's lack of fitness and physical preparation. Foreman is one of the, if not the hardest puncher that ever fought in the heavyweight division, frazier had a shaky chin. he's been knocked down before the foreman fight. he's shown that he could be hurt by ali's punches. anyway you cut it, shape or no shape, foreman had joe's number. if they fought 20 times foreman would beat and knock him out 20 times. and that's not pointing a finger at joe.

the rematch proved that. and while frazier might have been heavier, older, and way past his prime in that fight, the result was given as expected. i know that a lot of people say that joe's strategy in the second fight could have bought his some rounds, as it did, but sooner or later foreman would catch him, as he ultimately did. joe's youth with that strategy could have bought him 2 more extra rounds on top of it, but to no avail imo. frazier's a slow starter, but he wouldnt get going against foreman and open up like he did against other guys. the answer to that is size and punching power. joe's at his best when he exchanges, after the first fight, frazier would always think twice before exchanging with a puncher like foreman again.

joe's bobin and weavin style is tailor made for foreman who had one of the best uppercuts. tyson, dont forget, also had an excellent uppercut, especially against shorter heavyweights who leaned into it. tyson is one of the fastest starters, much faster than george, who didnt waste a lot of time either.

tyson's chin was much better than Joes', and so too is his punching power. physically going into the fight, tyson would seem to have all the advantages. i see tyson catching joe, and joe is not that hard to hit. and once the damage occurs, tyson would be all over him. next to Joe Louis, and Ray Leonard, and Ray Robinson, tyson is one of the greatest finishers. he wont try any funny stuff, he'll just try to kill him.

[mcentepede]

Good point kid, I almost forgot that Tyson was a great finisher. And nobody had a sweeter uppercut back then, than Mike. Does anybody even throw a decent uppercut nowadays?

[CounterPuncher]

Frazier was beaten by just two men in his whole career - Ali and Foreman.

Tyson was beaten by five different guys.

Tyson lost to the best two heavyweights of his era (Holyfield and Lewis), albeit he was past he peak. His peak was very short lived and he didn't really beat any what you could call really great fighters during his peak years, the best being an old way past his prime Larry Holmes. Also, Tyson got badly knocked out by an average fighter in his so-called prime.

The problem is no one knows when Tyson was really at his best, as there was a big problem with things upstairs with Mike.

Frazier was scared of nothing and bothered by no one, I think he would have taken everything Mike had to offer, but maybe had to suffer a knockdown along the way but I think he would have stopped Mike late on or if not get a UD. Joe's only weakness came against a big powerful swarming forward Foreman, but Tyson wasn't a 6'4 Foreman type hitter. Mike would lose out stamina wise and he became very easy to hit after the middle rounds. Mike's head went elsewhere when he came up against someone who wasn't bothered by his reputation and could match up as a bully, Frazier fits this bill perfectly.

[mcentepede]

That is pretty much what I said but plagarized....I mean put into different sounding words and other tidbits. Fact is...if we had the physical abilities that prime Mike had, I think we would be pretty much invincible. He was simply a destroyer of Heavyweights back then.

[StarshipTrooper]

That is pretty much what I said but plagarized....I mean put into different sounding words and other tidbits. Fact is...if we had the physical abilities that prime Mike had, I think we would be pretty much invincible. He was simply a destroyer of Heavyweights back then.

A destroyer of grade B and C Heavyweights. When facing top calibre Heavyweights he either won, but didn't destroy (Tucker, Rudduck) or got destroyed (Holyfield). And none of this "Tyson was past his prime against Holyfield" either: Holyfield was past HIS prime as well.

Poet

[Boogie Nights]

A destroyer of grade B and C Heavyweights. When facing top calibre Heavyweights he either won, but didn't destroy (Tucker, Rudduck) or got destroyed (Holyfield). And none of this "Tyson was past his prime against Holyfield" either: Holyfield was past HIS prime as well.

Poet

Poet i've come to a conclusion about your posts. and dont take this into offense, just pointing out my view. as i see it, this is not the first post in which your expressed your hatred towards tyson. and not even on this website. ive seen your posts in ringsidereport too

but im not pointing fingers at you

i dont understand why you're not giving tyson enough credit. on his way up he did fight a few cans, but his early record was in no way stuffed with opponents like jones, morrison, marciano and many others have faced

the only legit fighter that i can think of who started facing good opposition early, is the king, Muhammad Ali

with that tyson became the youngest heavyweight champion. that's history

tyson has faced much bigger fighters in physical resemblance than Joe have. Joe ran into the first monster and got knocked out. Buster Mathis was not a stand out big fighter of that era.

tyson being a smaller man, fighting in the division that has grown quite a bit since the old days, had to overcome quite a bit. size, height, reach etc.

without any discipline he wouldnt have been able to do that

he beat a tough and durable Pinklon Thomas, whose chin was know to be granite. Tony Tucker. undefeated duva trained Tyrell Biggs, a past it holmes but who also came back to beat an undefeated ray mercer

spinks who's been with larger and bigger opponents than tyson, (that being holmes himself, and 6'5 240 Gerry Cooney) and in his day was a splendid light heavy. Bruno twice, who gave lennox a hard time. Tony Tubbs who came back with good effort against Bowe, and fared much better against a 6'5 fighter than he did against tyson. How about Carl Williams, Alex Stewart, donovan ruddock?

list goes on and on. it's amazing how you find little perks in tyson's record to downgrade him. i truly find it silly and immature Poet

holyfield was past his prime when he fought tyson, but he went on to have more better fights and almost earning a decision in the second lewis fight, what does that say about Lennox then?

also evander didnt sit in prison for 3 and a half years. when mike came out he was a different fighter. no uppercut, single punches, no more combinations. basically a hard punching head hunter. Fighters age differently, mike aged quicker than holyfield did. If they were on the same level, than george was a super freak who aged much later than all of them.

it's easy to downgrade tyson's legacy because of what happened in his personal life, and it makes it easier for people, like yourself, to point their fingers, which you have also done as ive seen. But mike was never ****** or wreckless in the ring.

i hope one day you can be reasonable enough and give mike some credit without taking into account the personal bull**** which is errelevant in evaluating his ring accomplishments. Bottomline you being too hard on tyson, and you probably dont even know it.

PS in case you didnt know Frazier, years after his career was over, also got physical with his girlfriend who had bruises on her face when the poilice report came in

Foreman by his own addmission liked to beat up women and intimidate them. maybe you'd say this is all is not as bad as raping someone, but that's debatable. ive never believed that tyson ****d anyone, he might have gotten physical with her, but everyone knew her financial angle all along. maybe there was something, but it was blown out of proportions

but to not to call tyson a special fighter, and say he didnt have heart, is redicilous.

[StarshipTrooper]

Poet i've come to a conclusion about your posts. and dont take this into offense, just pointing out my view. as i see it, this is not the first post in which your expressed your hatred towards tyson. and not even on this website. ive seen your posts in ringsidereport too

but im not pointing fingers at you

i dont understand why you're not giving tyson enough credit. on his way up he did fight a few cans, but his early record was in no way stuffed with opponents like jones, morrison, marciano and many others have faced

the only legit fighter that i can think of who started facing good opposition early, is the king, Muhammad Ali

with that tyson became the youngest heavyweight champion. that's history

tyson has faced much bigger fighters in physical resemblance than Joe have. Joe ran into the first monster and got knocked out. Buster Mathis was not a stand out big fighter of that era.

tyson being a smaller man, fighting in the division that has grown quite a bit since the old days, had to overcome quite a bit. size, height, reach etc.

without any discipline he wouldnt have been able to do that

he beat a tough and durable Pinklon Thomas, whose chin was know to be granite. Tony Tucker. undefeated duva trained Tyrell Biggs, a past it holmes but who also came back to beat an undefeated ray mercer

spinks who's been with larger and bigger opponents than tyson, (that being holmes himself, and 6'5 240 Gerry Cooney) and in his day was a splendid light heavy. Bruno twice, who gave lennox a hard time. Tony Tubbs who came back with good effort against Bowe, and fared much better against a 6'5 fighter than he did against tyson. How about Carl Williams, Alex Stewart, donovan ruddock?

list goes on and on. it's amazing how you find little perks in tyson's record to downgrade him. i truly find it silly and immature Poet

holyfield was past his prime when he fought tyson, but he went on to have more better fights and almost earning a decision in the second lewis fight, what does that say about Lennox then?

also evander didnt sit in prison for 3 and a half years. when mike came out he was a different fighter. no uppercut, single punches, no more combinations. basically a hard punching head hunter. Fighters age differently, mike aged quicker than holyfield did. If they were on the same level, than george was a super freak who aged much later than all of them.

it's easy to downgrade tyson's legacy because of what happened in his personal life, and it makes it easier for people, like yourself, to point their fingers, which you have also done as ive seen. But mike was never ****** or wreckless in the ring.

i hope one day you can be reasonable enough and give mike some credit without taking into account the personal bull**** which is errelevant in evaluating his ring accomplishments. Bottomline you being too hard on tyson, and you probably dont even know it.

PS in case you didnt know Frazier, years after his career was over, also got physical with his girlfriend who had bruises on her face when the poilice report came in

Foreman by his own addmission liked to beat up women and intimidate them. maybe you'd say this is all is not as bad as raping someone, but that's debatable. ive never believed that tyson ****d anyone, he might have gotten physical with her, but everyone knew her financial angle all along. maybe there was something, but it was blown out of proportions

but to not to call tyson a special fighter, and say he didnt have heart, is redicilous.

The problem with Tyson's record isn't that he didn't face top opposition early, it's that he didn't face top opposition period. The first time Tyson faced a top rank fighter it was Evander Holyfield and Tyson LOST. By way of comparison I'm just as critical of the strength of Marciano's record: He didn't face top-tier opposition either. The ATGs on Marciano's record were all past prime and, in the case of Louis, at the end of their string.

Now, does that mean that I don't think Tyson is a good fighter? No. I consider him a near great, just not top 10 ATG. I think he's consistently over-rated by people who started watching boxing in the 80s. I also think he's over-rated by a lot of fight fans in general because they ALWAYS over-rate fighters who generate a lot of offense: Confusing a fighter's entertainment value with ring greatness. Far from hating Tyson on a personal level, he's probably the only fighter or former fighter I'd like to sit down with over a cup of coffee and watch old fights with. Why? Because he's about the only one who could talk intelligently about great fighters and great fights of the past. Simple. I've made posts in these forums before on that subject. The point is my beef has NEVER been with Tyson but with the people who think Mike could walk on water. Those types of fans will always find my bullseye on them.

Poet

[Thoth]

Arguing about Mike Tyson with someone who has Tyson as his avatar?

I wonder how this will go...

[makaveli_uk]

In his prime Tyson could kill anyone.