Ali vs. Liston II - Hypothetical Question

[StarshipTrooper]

My impression of Liston as a beast is based on the two Cleveland Williams fights. Williams had one-punch KO power and Liston walked right through Cleveland's best punches and destroyed him. Lets not forget too that Floyd Patterson was a very good fighter so two 1st round KOs over him is nothing to sneeze at.

Poet

[TheGreatA]

Liston's one round destruction of the durable Wayne Bethea was impressive also.

Bethea was never stopped by anyone else and he fought all of them.

Sonny Liston vs Wayne Bethea 06-08-1958
Uploaded by TheHomelessDetective

Liston was so clearly superior to any of the other top fighters of his era, it must've been hard to believe at the time that a loudmouth kid like Ali (or Clay at the time) who had been knocked down by Cooper and Banks could beat him.

On hindsight it's not so hard to believe because Ali was truly one of the greatest of all time.

[K-DOGG]

Ali wins. I don't think there's much doubt that Liston would have given a better showing; but I think the sheer talent and boosted confidence level of Ali coming off that monumental upset would have carried Ali to another victory by way of another "quit" victory.

Liston would have retired when he realized it was hopless...just like he did in the first.

[Kid McCoy]

Not to take anything away Liston who was indeed a formidable champion and imposing figure, but his image as a "beast" was unduly magnified by his two first-round annihilations of one man - Floyd "The Rabbit" Patterson, who had a glass jaw.

Thing is, did Floyd really have a "glass jaw"?

Ok, Liston KO'd him twice, but Liston is one of the all-time hard punchers and would knock out a lot of heavies, so no disgrace there.

KO'd by Ingo? For all his various faults Ingo did have a good punch, as Eddie Machen discovered a while earlier. Floyd got up every time he was knocked down against Ingo, and showed in the two rematches that he could take his punch.

The only other one to stop Floyd was a prime Ali, who gave him a battering but couldn't get him off his feet in two attempts. Again, no disgrace there.

He got knocked down a lot by other guys, but he also got up a lot, and often got up to win. Joe Louis got knocked down a lot as well, but is usually credited with a decent chin. Ali got knocked down by Henry Cooper, yet Enery's Hammer never once troubled Floyd. Archie Moore knocked down Marciano, yet Floyd walked through everything Moore threw at him.

Fair enough, he's not going to rival Hagler, Ali or Chuvalo in the all-time chin ratings, but it was better than he's usually given credit for.

[JAB5239]

Thing is, did Floyd really have a "glass jaw"?

Ok, Liston KO'd him twice, but Liston is one of the all-time hard punchers and would knock out a lot of heavies, so no disgrace there.

KO'd by Ingo? For all his various faults Ingo did have a good punch, as Eddie Machen discovered a while earlier. Floyd got up every time he was knocked down against Ingo, and showed in the two rematches that he could take his punch.

The only other one to stop Floyd was a prime Ali, who gave him a battering but couldn't get him off his feet in two attempts. Again, no disgrace there.

He got knocked down a lot by other guys, but he also got up a lot, and often got up to win. Joe Louis got knocked down a lot as well, but is usually credited with a decent chin. Ali got knocked down by Henry Cooper, yet Enery's Hammer never once troubled Floyd. Archie Moore knocked down Marciano, yet Floyd walked through everything Moore threw at him.

Fair enough, he's not going to rival Hagler, Ali or Chuvalo in the all-time chin ratings, but it was better than he's usually given credit for.

Very good post!!

[TheGreatA]

Thing is, did Floyd really have a "glass jaw"?

Ok, Liston KO'd him twice, but Liston is one of the all-time hard punchers and would knock out a lot of heavies, so no disgrace there.

KO'd by Ingo? For all his various faults Ingo did have a good punch, as Eddie Machen discovered a while earlier. Floyd got up every time he was knocked down against Ingo, and showed in the two rematches that he could take his punch.

The only other one to stop Floyd was a prime Ali, who gave him a battering but couldn't get him off his feet in two attempts. Again, no disgrace there.

He got knocked down a lot by other guys, but he also got up a lot, and often got up to win. Joe Louis got knocked down a lot as well, but is usually credited with a decent chin. Ali got knocked down by Henry Cooper, yet Enery's Hammer never once troubled Floyd. Archie Moore knocked down Marciano, yet Floyd walked through everything Moore threw at him.

Fair enough, he's not going to rival Hagler, Ali or Chuvalo in the all-time chin ratings, but it was better than he's usually given credit for.

I don't think Patterson had a glass jaw, the problem was that he was pretty much a light heavyweight fighting heavyweights.

He had a ton of heart though and always said that while he may have been down more than any other heavyweight champion, he also got up from the canvas more times than any other heavyweight champion.

Patterson was still able to outbox Bonavena and Chuvalo who both outweighed him by quite a lot.

[Mr. Ryan]

Everytime someone loses, there is an excuse. Liston is no exception.

Hypothetically, a fighter peaking in training camp only to have to re-start camp loses something. You need to rest between camps like that. But Ali was jut too young, too fast and too skilled for Liston to deal with.

[Mr. Ryan]

I don't think Patterson had a glass jaw, the problem was that he was pretty much a light heavyweight fighting heavyweights.

He had a ton of heart though and always said that while he may have been down more than any other heavyweight champion, he also got up from the canvas more times than any other heavyweight champion.

Patterson was still able to outbox Bonavena and Chuvalo who both outweighed him by quite a lot.

Agreed, he was wayyy too small to deal with big punchers like Liston.

His knockouts of Cooper and Johannsen are very underrated. Those were ATG knockouts.

[StarshipTrooper]

Patterson's biggest problem wasn't his weight but rather his reach: It was just too short to deal with long armed fighters like Liston and Ali, while at the same time he couldn't soak up punishment the way other short-armed fighters such as Joe Frazier could which you have to be able to do to get inside that greater reach.

Poet