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**danthepoetman** · 07-23-2012, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by SBleeder View Post

1. Holyfield was every bit as dominant in a 12 round win as Tyson was in a 4 round win
2. Holmes may have been younger for Tyson than he was against Holyfield, but he was out of shape and barely trained.

Don�t mean any disrespect, but I find your arguments a bit debatable, and besides, the second one seems to somewhat contradict the very meaning of the first, at least implicitly. In any case, my point is that at his very peak, Tyson might have been a better heavyweight champion than Holyfield was, whose peak came maybe more at cruiserweight. Being naturally smaller, Holyfield had, one way or the other, to bulk up to compete with bigger guys, and did it brilliantly. That�s why I say he�s a better pound for pound entry than at heavyweight, and most certainly a better one than Tyson. And don�t get me wrong, I find �the Real Deal� to be amongst the all time greats, of course; I have more admiration for him than for most. As a young heavyweight champion, Tyson was so dominant no one seemed capable of challenging him. That�s why I tentatively gave him the number 10 spot at heavyweight. You seem to be one who admires commander Vander, SBleeder; I totally share that admiration, believe me.

**Ray Corso** · 07-25-2012, 07:50 AM

Try to understand that Great fighters don't guit in the ring when they feel pressure! Tysons era was filled with old fighters that could of and would of beaten him. A young hungry Holmes would have stepped to Tyson as Evander did and beaten him. If Evander and Buster could do it why couldn't legit top flight fighters have done it? The young lion Tyson fought No ONE!!! Look at his record and show me ONE guy who could punch?? Who Blood Green hahahaha Souzski a punching bag??? Do you know how much time was spent getting the "right" opponents for Tyson? Those guys got KO'ed in spectacular fashion because Mike had power but his opponents lost regularly and never did a thing in boxing but be opponents!! He Quit against Evender, Quit! Ray

**danthepoetman** · 07-25-2012, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by Ray Corso View Post

Try to understand that Great fighters don't guit in the ring when they feel pressure! Tysons era was filled with old fighters that could of and would of beaten him. A young hungry Holmes would have stepped to Tyson as Evander did and beaten him. If Evander and Buster could do it why couldn't legit top flight fighters have done it? The young lion Tyson fought No ONE!!! Look at his record and show me ONE guy who could punch?? Who Blood Green hahahaha Souzski a punching bag??? Do you know how much time was spent getting the "right" opponents for Tyson? Those guys got KO'ed in spectacular fashion because Mike had power but his opponents lost regularly and never did a thing in boxing but be opponents!! He Quit against Evender, Quit! Ray

I�m sorry, Ray, but your arguments don�t add up. First, thinking that a peak Holmes would have eaten Tyson alive is thoroughly absurd! I was a young man at the beginning of Holmes� reign, and we were saying exactly the same thing about him as you are about Tyson, that there were hardly any decent contenders to oppose him. Yet, as great as he was (and he was indeed) he had such a hard time with Kenny Norton, who was knock out in one by Shavers and in two by Foreman. He nearly was kayoed by an old, slow Shavers in the championship fight rematch (Shavers who couldn�t even take care of an old fatigue Ali in 77), was almost beaten by Mike Weaver (not the greatest heavyweight of all time), and had hell against Gerry Cooney who�s reputation, by Holmes� own admission at the time (and he was red mad about it, even going as far as suggesting it was the result of racist manoeuvres), had been built up from a bunch of old guys and tomato cans. Finally, he was edged by a light heavyweight with a small frame, as you know who was soon after destroyed by Tyson (who after destroyed Holmes himself!). I agree that a peak Holmes would probably have been able to pass the rough first 5 to 7 rounds against a peak Tyson, and probably would have won a close decision after very, VERY rough moments in the first half. But that�s it.
I was hesitant to put Tyson at number 10 in place of Holyfield. Yet I repeat that he did better against a younger Holmes and I can�t possibly imagine Tyson loosing as a young heavyweight champion to Michael Moorer, for instance, or having trouble and being decked by Bert Cooper. Can you, really? Or struggling with Alex Stewart the first time around�
I finally decided to put Tyson atop Holyfield for those reasons: as the heavyweight champion of the world, he was totally dominant at his peak, so much so that no one seemed decent enough a contender for him. And he easily got rid at this point of the two number one before him, both Holmes and Spinks. As to the great Holyfield (greater than Tyson as a pound for pounder) you have to remember that he lost twice to Bowe, and was on his way to loose even the second one when the fan guy descended from the sky. After barely getting the decision in that very second Bowe fight (a majority decision: 115-114; 115-114; 115-115), he lost the title to Moorer only 4 months later. Also, there will always be the shadow of Lennox Lewis, who could also have beaten him before 99, in all probability.
As to the idea that the absence of great contenders is an absolutely decisive factor, I�m not sure about it one bit. A great champion usually makes it look like that. Besides, you could say the same thing about several of the very great ones. Marciano had only older former great guys to fight with. Dempsey had so few decent contenders he had to take a 3 years break. Johnson was way too big and clever for anyone to seem remotely able to compete with him. Just to mention a few�
Now, as to what happened with Tyson later on, it�s a whole different thing. We all know how he got old just at once. It seems after personal affairs started to really burden him, he showed in almost an instant to be over the edge. And he lived on after as a fighter on the reputation he had gathered before. Remember this car accident which was said to might have been a suicide attempt, remember the divorce, the trial, jail, etc.? A young kid being too good for his own good too soon and loosing it all�
I�m sorry, Ray, but I stand by my choice. I suggest to you that what you presented to me are not arguments but value judgements, subjective impressions�

**danthepoetman** · 07-26-2012, 05:51 AM

Originally posted by Ray Corso View Post

Try to understand that Great fighters don't guit in the ring when they feel pressure! Tysons era was filled with old fighters that could of and would of beaten him. A young hungry Holmes would have stepped to Tyson as Evander did and beaten him. If Evander and Buster could do it why couldn't legit top flight fighters have done it? The young lion Tyson fought No ONE!!! Look at his record and show me ONE guy who could punch?? Who Blood Green hahahaha Souzski a punching bag??? Do you know how much time was spent getting the "right" opponents for Tyson? Those guys got KO'ed in spectacular fashion because Mike had power but his opponents lost regularly and never did a thing in boxing but be opponents!! He Quit against Evender, Quit! Ray

You know what, Ray: you�re right; you made me reconsider. I focus too much on what the fighter was at his peak. If I consider things as a whole, Holyfield should take a place atop Tyson and probably even quite a few more� Point taken.

**michaelquinlan** · 08-01-2012, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by -CANE- View Post

Hi everyone, just joined and I know this has probably been done a million times, but just letting everyone know what I think.

Top 10 Greatest Heavyweights of all-time

1> Muhammad Ali
2> Larry Holmes
3> Lennox Lewis
4> Joe Louis
5> Evander Holyfield
6> Jack Johnson
7> George Foreman
8> Rocky Marciano
9> Joe Frazier
10>Mike Tyson

Top 10 Favourite Heavyweight's of all-time

1> Larry Holmes
2> George Foreman
3> Muhammed Ali
4> Joe Louis
5> Mike Tyson
6> Rocky Marciano
7> Jack Johnson
8> Lennox Lewis
9> James J. Jeffries
10>Sonny Liston

Top 10 Worst Heavyweight Champions of all-time
1> Franceso Damiani
2> Corrie Sanders
3> Chris Byrd
4> Michael Bent
5> Nickolay Valuev
6> Lamon Brewster
7> Frans Botha
8> Greg Page
9> John Tate
10>Henry Akinwande

Top 10 Most underated heavyweights of all-time
1> Larry Holmes
2> Lennox Lewis
3> Gene Tunney
4> Ezzard Charles
5> Tim Witherspoon
6> Ken Norton
7> James J. Jeffries
8> George Foreman
9> Jersey Joe Walcott
10>Riddick Bowe
Feel free to get back I know many will disagree especially why I have Lewis 3rd and Tyson 10, so if you want to know just ask and I will explain my reasons