Top 10 Heavies from best to worst

[Jim Jeffries]

I like that list a lot, maybe that's because your top 3 is the same as mine and the rest is not too different either.

Thanks, like I said it's a work in progress. I used to have Liston on it, took him off for only having one successful title defense (against the same person he took the title from.) However I do think he was ducked a bit and did beat a lot of top heavyweights, even after Ali beat him. Cleveland Williams (twice,) Roy Harris, Zora Foley, Edie Machen, Floyd Patterson (twice) and Chuck Wepner. Plus I factored in the way he destroyed a lot of these guys.

[Hawkins]

The bad thing about lists is that you're always learning new things about fighters, thus making your outlook change. Because of that you redo your lists. At least I do anyway.

[-CANE-]

Thanks, like I said it's a work in progress. I used to have Liston on it, took him off for only having one successful title defense (against the same person he took the title from.) However I do think he was ducked a bit and did beat a lot of top heavyweights, even after Ali beat him. Cleveland Williams (twice,) Roy Harris, Zora Foley, Edie Machen, Floyd Patterson (twice) and Chuck Wepner. Plus I factored in the way he destroyed a lot of these guys.

It's a pity Liston never got a title shot earlier, I think he could have reigned for quite a while. Just think what would have been if there wasn't a Muhammad Ali. Would we be saying Liston was the greatest of all time.

[Hawkins]

It's a pity Liston never got a title shot earlier, I think he could have reigned for quite a while. Just think what would have been if there wasn't a Muhammad Ali. Would we be saying Liston was the greatest of all time.

The thing that killed Liston's title chances were his overt ties to the Mafia. Had it not been for that he would have been champ alot sooner in my estimation.

[-CANE-]

The thing that killed Liston's title chances were his overt ties to the Mafia. Had it not been for that he would have been champ alot sooner in my estimation.

Definately that's for sure. Was he made to lose against Ali some say Yes while others disagree, I'll guess we'll never know for sure but there is always the mystery surrounding those 2 fights.

[Hawkins]

Definately that's for sure. Was he made to lose against Ali some say Yes while others disagree, I'll guess we'll never know for sure but there is always the mystery surrounding those 2 fights.

I truly don't believe he was made to lose either fight. He was shellshocked in the first fight because of Ali's tremendous speed and ultimately it broke his spirit and he quit (I don't believe the shoulder imjury for a minute, just trying to save face).

The second fight I truly believe that punch that Ali threw put him down. Granted it was a werid stoppage, but the punch did do some damage.

[The Iron Man]

Yeh i totally agree with you their Hawkins! Liston probably had the most crime filled life out of all the Heavyweight greats! for me he misses out on the list!

[-CANE-]

I truly don't believe he was made to lose either fight. He was shellshocked in the first fight because of Ali's tremendous speed and ultimately it broke his spirit and he quit (I don't believe the shoulder imjury for a minute, just trying to save face).

The second fight I truly believe that punch that Ali threw put him down. Granted it was a werid stoppage, but the punch did do some damage.

Personally I agree with you Hawkins and Iron Man that they were genuine victories, I was just stating that there is a cloud of mystery surrounding those fights and some believe them to be fixed in some sort of way. Whether they were or not or whether you believe or not what I'm saying is none of us will truly know for sure no matter what we believe.

Hawk - Thought anymore on that consensus.

Iron Man - What about poet running a tournament on his program is it worth asking him.

[Hawkins]

Personally I agree with you Hawkins and Iron Man that they were genuine victories, I was just stating that there is a cloud of mystery surrounding those fights and some believe them to be fixed in some sort of way. Whether they were or not or whether you believe or not what I'm saying is none of us will truly know for sure no matter what we believe.

I agree, I just think alot of that crap stuck because people of the time were trying their damndest to discredit Ali because of his political stance. My take anyway.

Hawk - Thought anymore on that consensus.

Yea I have, just haven't had adequate time to put it all together. I'll send you an email in the next couple of days detailing it all. I want your opinion before I throw it out there.

[Hawkins]

Regarding Evander. I placed him in the top 10 in my latest list, but upon further review I'm not sure he belongs.

The one criticism I could always place against Evander was that he tended to fight to the level of his competition. He struggled against alot of fighters that he shouldn't have while always getting himself up for the prime time match-ups.

Anyone else think this?