Top 10 Heavies from best to worst

[Brunswick Assassin]

I can't see how you have Jack Dempsey at no.1. Granted for his time he was spectacular and was completely unique but no.1 is absurd. However you compile your top10 whether it be accomplishments, ability or whatever there is always someone better than him. If you go on what they achieved there are at least 9 other heavyweights whose achievments outway Dempseys. This is fact. If you go on ability as a boxer then again there are many that are better Gene Tunney proved that. Even if your just taking him as a ferocious all action fighter then there are still fighters that were better than Dempsey at this, Marciano,Liston who could box as well,Tyson and Frazier. No doubt for his time he was tremendous but in head to head matchups against other greats I would pick Jeffries,Johnson,Tunney,Louis,Marciano,Liston,Char les,Ali,Holmes,Tyson,Holyfield and Lewis all to beat him. Everyone has there own way and set of criteria for assembling a top10 list but whatever way you do it Dempsey cannot come out on top.

Number One spot could have gone to either Dempsey or Louis! However, top spot goes to Dempsey based on that he had quicker feet and hands then Louis and started off at such a blistering pace that Louis would have had troubles with him. Even the great Jack Johnson said that "Louis was a slow-footed manufactured boxer who had marked mechanical flaws and wasn't a very bright boy!" Dempsey would have gone for Louis from the get-go! Dempsey wouldn't have knocked out Ali but would have gotten a close nod over 15 rounds! Hell man, how could say that Jeffries, Johnson, Tunney, Marciano..... would beat Dempsey???? Johnson's era was full of hugging, Tunney was nowhere near Dempsey's league, Marciano only had that wicked right and no boxing ability, Holmes had no one to fight against remotely decent, Lewis' chin would have been severly dented by Dempsey. Dempsey would have retired Lewis for good. Holyfield would have quit after round 3!

[-CANE-]

Number One spot could have gone to either Dempsey or Louis! However, top spot goes to Dempsey based on that he had quicker feet and hands then Louis and started off at such a blistering pace that Louis would have had troubles with him. Even the great Jack Johnson said that "Louis was a slow-footed manufactured boxer who had marked mechanical flaws and wasn't a very bright boy!" Dempsey would have gone for Louis from the get-go! Dempsey wouldn't have knocked out Ali but would have gotten a close nod over 15 rounds! Hell man, how could say that Jeffries, Johnson, Tunney, Marciano..... would beat Dempsey???? Johnson's era was full of hugging, Tunney was nowhere near Dempsey's league, Marciano only had that wicked right and no boxing ability, Holmes had no one to fight against remotely decent, Lewis' chin would have been severly dented by Dempsey. Dempsey would have retired Lewis for good. Holyfield would have quit after round 3!

It's all about opinions and everyone has a different opinion. No-one is right or wrong. I disagree with you when you say Tunney was nowhere near Dempsey's league I mean he beat him twice so that statement does not ring true. Marciano had more than just a right hand and although not a great boxer he had boxing ability and was very difficult to hit. As for Lennox Lewis I think his chin would have stood up no problem. Lewis never had a weak chin infact he had a great chin, Lewis would have been too big, too clever for Dempsey. He'd have kept him at a distance for 5-6 rounds and busted him up before clinically knocking him out. Luis Firpo knocked Dempsey clean out the ring so Dempsey could be hurt as well. Lewis would never have been lazy against Dempsey and wouldn't have made silly mistakes like in his losses.
The true mark of a great champion is how you handle your losses and can you come back. Dempsey could have fought Tunney another 10 times and never won because Tunney had his number. Lewis avenged both of his defeats proving they were flukes. You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine, and as great as Dempsey was he was never number 1 in my opinion. Try adding on a 0 because that's about as high as I could rank him (10)

[-CANE-]

I hear a lot of talk when discussing the greats about how weak Lewis chin was. I believe this is one of the biggest myths in boxing, just because of his 2 ko losses. Watch these highlights and see what you think.


Now watch his ability to throw every punch in the book and knockout power with either hand








One of the all time greats and on his day could have beaten anyone

[StarshipTrooper]

Even the great Jack Johnson said that "Louis was a slow-footed manufactured boxer who had marked mechanical flaws and wasn't a very bright boy!"

You need to do a bit more research so you can actually understand the context Johnson's claims were made. Johnson's is a case of biased sour grapes based on the fact that when Louis was starting out Johnson himself wanted to train Joe but Louis' handlers didn't want the controversial Johnson anywhere near Louis and picked Jack Blackburn as Louis' trainer instead. Johnson later claimed that, out of spite, it was HE that gave Max Schmeling the lowdown on Louis dropping his left that Schmeling exploited in their first fight.

You can't simply take controversial sentences at face value: You have to do some checking around to why that statement might have been made outside of innocent observation.

Poet

[-CANE-]

my champ and top 10 based on who comes out top if they all fought eachother:

CHAMP louis - no loses w10-L0
1. ali - lose to louis w9-L1
2. lewis - loses to top 2 w8-L2
3. holyfield - loses to top 3 and foreman w6-L4
4. foreman - loses to top 3 and holmes and johnson w5-L5
5. marciano - loses to top 5 w5-L5
6. holmes - loses to top 6 except foreman w5-L5
7. johnson - loses to top 7 except foreman w4-L6
8. dempsey - loses to all except frazier w1-L9
9.frazier - loses to all except tyson w1-L9
10.tyson - loses to all except dempsey w1-L9

My Top16 and how they would do against each other

1> Muhammed Ali 14-1 (Loses to Lewis)
2> Joe Louis 10-5 (Loses to Ali,Lewis,Holmes,Tyson & Foreman)
3> Lennox Lewis 15-0 (Beats them all)
4> Larry Holmes 13-2 (Loses to Ali & Lewis)
5> Evander Holyfield 9-6 (Loses to top4,Tyson & Foreman)
6> Mike Tyson 11-4 (Loses to Ali,Lewis,Holmes and Marciano)
7> George Foreman 12-3 (Loses to Ali,Lewis and Holmes)
8> Joe Frazier 6-9 (Loses to top7,Marciano and Liston)
9> Jack Johnson 4-11 (Beats Charles,Burns,Jeffries,Patterson & Loses rest)
10>Rocky Marciano 10-5 (Loses to top4 and Foreman)
11>Jack Dempsey 5-10 (Loses to top 8,Marciano and Liston)
12>Floyd Patterson 1-14 (Beats Burns & Loses the rest)
13>James J. Jeffries 2-13 (Beats Burns & Patterson & Loses the rest)
14>Tommy Burns 0-15
15>Ezzard Charles 3-12 (Beats Burns,Jeffries,Patterson & Loses the rest)
16>Sonny Liston 7-8 (Loses to top 7 and Marciano)

I know people will have problems with this, but I honestly think of all the fighters their if any one had all the tools to beat every single one of them it was Lennox Lewis.

[Brassangel]

Lewis did have a better chin that most people give him credit for. He was wobbled, and hurt in many of those highlights, but he was facing guys who simply couldn't finish. They'd throw one punch and back up or hug him. If those guys gave him such trouble, two of whom actually KO'd him, and even a 35 year old Tyson gave him at least a few cobwebs, then a prime Mike puts him out. Your assessment that Lewis beats them all (though granted, he'd have a chance) is just as far-fetched as the assumption that Dempsey is #1; a comment made by a previous poster, with whom you argued.

Lewis doesn't beat Ali, because I doubt he'd hit him.

Foreman would be trouble.

Louis was far more technically sound than any fighter that gave Lewis trouble, and perhaps the best finisher in history. He could get the job done.

I guess I'm trying to say that your comments towards others can just as easily be applied to your hero. We need to be realistic here...nobody beats everybody.

[-CANE-]

Lewis did have a better chin that most people give him credit for. He was wobbled, and hurt in many of those highlights, but he was facing guys who simply couldn't finish. They'd throw one punch and back up or hug him. If those guys gave him such trouble, two of whom actually KO'd him, and even a 35 year old Tyson gave him at least a few cobwebs, then a prime Mike puts him out. Your assessment that Lewis beats them all (though granted, he'd have a chance) is just as far-fetched as the assumption that Dempsey is #1; a comment made by a previous poster, with whom you argued.

Lewis doesn't beat Ali, because I doubt he'd hit him.

Foreman would be trouble.

Louis was far more technically sound than any fighter that gave Lewis trouble, and perhaps the best finisher in history. He could get the job done.

I guess I'm trying to say that your comments towards others can just as easily be applied to your hero. We need to be realistic here...nobody beats everybody.

Styles make fights, while you say many of these boxers gave Lewis trouble the same can be said for any other Heavyweight in History. Louis - Conn, Ali - Norton, Holmes - Snipes, Tyson - Green, Holmes - Witherspoon, Foreman - Lyle, Marciano - Walcott are just a few examples.

I don't think Lewis was wobbled and hurt in many of them highlights. Caught yes and felt the punches, but he was not wobbling. Wobbling indicates wavering from side to side and he certainly wasn't doing that.

I'm not arguing that he couldn't possibly lose to a few of the fighters in the list. But it's far less far-fetched than having Dempsey at no.1. Lewis would have far more chance than Dempsey of beating all the fighters in that list.

To say he was fighting fighters that couldn't finish is ludicrous. Not all of them no, but what about Tyson,Holyfield,Tua,Ruddock,Mercer,Morrison,Klitch ko and Grant check out their ko's and come back and tell me none of them could finish an opponent.

While many of the fighters also have a good chance of beating Lewis he was at his best when the opponent was harder to beat, he tended not to make mistakes or not as many.

It's not a forgone conclusion that prime Tyson ko's Lewis, there is a very good chance he would but equally or more likely Lewis stops Tyson late or wins a very close decision.

I also think you are contradicting yourself a little with the Ali statement. To say Lewis wouldn't hit him is naive. If a smaller slower Norton could I'm sure Lewis would. You have said in previous posts (I'm not gonna quote because I can't remember the exact words, and I'm not trawling through just to try and prove a point, so sorry if I'm slightly of the mark with this) that Ali had technical flaws and couldn't block a jab he would sway away to avoid it. So I'm sure a 6'5 Lewis would land plenty of jabs and if Ali swayed out of the way, then the very technical Lewis would land a big right hand as he came back. Lewis had all the tools to beat every type of fighter out there. Big,small,boxers,fighters,bangers. Lewis could do everything extremely well. His jab is one of the best ever, along with his right hand which is one of the most powerful ever. He had the best uppercuts in the history of the division, had a decent left hook and could throw awseome combinations that were fast and powerful.

Even if he lost to any fighter in that list I'd pick him to win a series of 3 by 2-1 over them all. Nobody ever beat him twice. As great as Louis was because of the time difference and sheer size of Lewis I'd pick him over Louis every time. Up until Ali he beats them all, the ones after would give him the most trouble.

The trickiest fights out there would probably be:-
Liston,Ali,Frazier,Holmes,Foreman and Tyson. But like I said earlier and this is only my opinion he could lose to any of these but I'd bet he would beat them in a rematch and a rubber match.

[ozzienumber1]

Not a bad thread for a Pom. Lots of different opinions of which most are quite sensible. I'm not sure who was the greatest it's too hard to pick and they'll always be someone that's gonna argue and say its bull. Lewis was the exception to the rule when it comes to poms normally they find a way to lose in most sports, maybe that's why he's not liked by the poms. Hardest puncher has to be Foreman who would have destroyed any other of the fighters like Dempsey,Frazier,Liston,Tyson and Marciano. Most talented boxers have to be Ali,Louis,Holmes and Lewis. Those that could do both were probably Louis and Lewis but Lewis's chin would have let him down as it did in the past.
Some Fights I'd like to see would be
Foreman vs Tyson and Foreman vs Liston and Liston vs Tyson as they were the 3 most intimidating Heavyweights ever, who would intimidate who if these 3 all fought each other.

Could Jack Johnson have beaten Jack Dempsey

And what about Ali,Louis,Lewis and Holmes all fighting each other once who would come out on top.

What if someone had a time machine and went back and got all the greats just before they turned pro and brought them into today's bad crop of heavyweights. If they all turned pro today which ones would win a title, would anyone unify and dominate and who would be first to win a title.

[Brassangel]

Ali had technical flaws, which I've posted loads about before. I don't believe Lewis' style would be particularly adept at exposing them, however. He'd have that wide stance, with his hands high, and Ali would drive lead lefts and rights down the middle without much in the way of movement from Lewis.

Those other guys who exposed flaws in Ali's style did so because they kept moving, laterally and horizontally, forcing Ali's punches in directions that opened up his right side. Not exactly one of Lewis' strengths. He would be relying solely on trading jabs. Ali would throw quickly, spin Lewis around, and catch him again before he gets set. I find that Lewis' size wouldn't make up for the style disadvantage he has here, even though he was a solid boxer.


Also, stating that "Lewis beats them all" is just as odd as "Dempsey is #1", as there are more facts to suggest otherwise, regardless of opinions. Nobody could beat them all. Dempsey couldn't beat everybody on that list, but niether could Lewis. That alone makes a prediction of undefeatability more far-fetched.

[-CANE-]

Ali had technical flaws, which I've posted loads about before. I don't believe Lewis' style would be particularly adept at exposing them, however. He'd have that wide stance, with his hands high, and Ali would drive lead lefts and rights down the middle without much in the way of movement from Lewis.

Those other guys who exposed flaws in Ali's style did so because they kept moving, laterally and horizontally, forcing Ali's punches in directions that opened up his right side. Not exactly one of Lewis' strengths. He would be relying solely on trading jabs. Ali would throw quickly, spin Lewis around, and catch him again before he gets set. I find that Lewis' size wouldn't make up for the style disadvantage he has here, even though he was a solid boxer.


Also, stating that "Lewis beats them all" is just as odd as "Dempsey is #1", as there are more facts to suggest otherwise, regardless of opinions. Nobody could beat them all. Dempsey couldn't beat everybody on that list, but niether could Lewis. That alone makes a prediction of undefeatability more far-fetched.

I think there are few fighters on that list that on any given day could beat all the others. Lewis,Ali,Holmes,Tyson and possibly Louis. In regards
to Lewis standing straight in front of Ali and not having lateral movement I'd have to disagree. Check out some of them clips I posted. He wasn't the best at it but could do it well, better when he was leaner and quicker of hand and foot. Lewis was probably one of the cleverest champions out there, and was adept at figuring out how best to beat an opponent.