Top 10 Heavies from best to worst

[hhascup]

Your saying that your films are facts, but im showing stats im showing facts from what happend. Frazier was a very slow starter (another reason why i think tyson could beat him) it was almost his trademark to lose the first round. When ever i watch tapes of him the commentator always says "He always losses the first round". As for him being more busy in the later rounds, mayb its true mayb not i dnt have the punch stats, its all well and good moving around but ive shown that tysons KO rate is higher even in the later rounds, which again is a fact.

Tyson had more bouts then Frazier had so your facts don't show the whole picture. By average, Frazier had the more KO's in the late rounds and to tell you the truth, he had a better record in the late round then Tyson did anyway.

Tyson won 50 (KO 44) + lost 6 (KO 5) + drawn 0 = 58
Frazier won 32 (KO 27) + lost 4 (KO 3) + drawn 1 = 37

Your facts aren't even accurate, Frazier had 14 of his 37 bouts reach the 6th round like you said. BUT his record from the 6th round on was, 11 (6 KO) - 2 (1 TKO-BY) - 1.

NOTE: You had only 4 KO's for him, RTD is also scored as a knockout (I am one of the editors on Boxrec so I know).

He stopped
(1) Billy Daniels in the in the 6th round,
(2) Eddie Machen in the 10th round
(3) Doug Jones in the 6th round
(4) Buster Mathis in the 11th round
(5) Jerry Quarry in the 7th round
(6) Jimmy Ellis in the 9th round.

Tyson had 15 of his 58 bouts reach the 6th round. His record from the 6th round on was, 11 (6 KO) - 4 (2 KO-BY & 2 TKO-BY) - 0.

So lets look at it again:

Frazier: 11 (6 KO) - 2 (1 TKO-BY) - 1
Tyson: 11 (6 KO) - 4 (2 KO-BY & 2 TKO-BY) - 0

Looks to me that Frazier has the advantage !

This also shows me that Tyson was stopped 4 out of the 15 bouts he fought that went into the 6th round. In fact all his losses in the bouts that went 6 rounds or more were by KO or TKO. Tyson was counted out twice and they stopped it another 2 times. Frazier was stopped only once in the bouts that went into the 6th round, and that was to Ali and his only other loss was also to Ali when he lost a 12 round decision.

Also, Tyson didn't box a Top 10 Contender until his 20th bout (Tillis), and then fought another 8 bouts before he fought another one (Berbick).

Frazier fought his 1st in his 12th bout (Bonavena) and after 27 bouts, he fought a total of 8 Top 10 contenders. So Frazier fought the better opponents earlier in his career then Tyson did so that would not show in your facts.

See the way I look at it is boxing the Top 10 is like boxing in the Major Leagues.

If you just count Tyson's last 37 bouts, compared to Frazier's 37 bouts, here's how they would stand:

Tyson 29 (25) - 6 (5) - 0 (2 NC)
Frazier 32 (27) - 4 (3) - 1

Looks pretty close won't you say.

Again, Tyson was very aggressive for the 1st couple of rounds, BUT Frazier was aggressive throughout the whole bout. Tyson wasn't the same after several rounds, he slowed up a lot and some of the boxers went on to stop him.

[mickeyb]

basically Frazier was the better athlete and tyson was the more natural talent. Tyson's downfall was he fought too many bums early on, they rushed him into a title fight before he had the experience to go 12 hard rounds, this would cost him through out his career.

frazier could go 12 rounds and would pace himself better which is why if frazier could get through the first 6 rounds with tyson he would beat him, whether or not he could is the question. i know foreman took frazier out early but foreman carries a different type of power, he would catch joe from up above and was just too big for him, where as tyson is the same size and i think joe would give as good as he got and come through.

i'd have foreman to beat tyson as well for the same reason he beat frazier.

tyson would take out dempsey in five, lose to louis inside 12 and lose to marciano inside 10.

[-CANE-]

basically Frazier was the better athlete and tyson was the more natural talent. Tyson's downfall was he fought too many bums early on, they rushed him into a title fight before he had the experience to go 12 hard rounds, this would cost him through out his career.

frazier could go 12 rounds and would pace himself better which is why if frazier could get through the first 6 rounds with tyson he would beat him, whether or not he could is the question. i know foreman took frazier out early but foreman carries a different type of power, he would catch joe from up above and was just too big for him, where as tyson is the same size and i think joe would give as good as he got and come through.

i'd have foreman to beat tyson as well for the same reason he beat frazier.

tyson would take out dempsey in five, lose to louis inside 12 and lose to marciano inside 10.

What Tyson are you talking about PRIME or late. I'd say PRIME Tyson takes out dempsey in 2, beats Frazier in 2 because Joe was such a slow starter and you cannot afford to start slow against Tyson. Louis would beat Tyson on late stoppage, Marciano would have to get off the deck a few times to win, if the ref would allow this fight to continue I see Marciano wearing him down late. I see Tyson beating Holyfield, purely because Holyfields instincts when hurt was to fire back with as much as he could, he wouldn't back off and box which is what he would need to do to beat Tyson. I see Tyson beating Holyfield in 5 rounds. Ali would outpoint Tyson and Lewis would win a very close decision or stop him late. Holmes would drag himself up of the floor and go the distance in a fight that could go either way.

[mickeyb]

i dont buy into prime tyson theory, his so called prime was when he was inexperienced so i dont see him beating many of the greats when he was young. when he was older he showed he didnt have the stamina to go 12 hard rounds.

tyson versus greats:-
jefferies ko tyson 17
johnson ko tyson 23
tyson ko dempsey 5
louis ko tyson 10
marciano ko tyson 8
liston ko tyson 7
ali ko tyson 12
frazier ko tyson 11
foreman ko tyson 7
holmes wpts tyson 12/15
holyfield ko tyson 11
bowe ko tyson 11
lewis ko tyson 9

[-CANE-]

i dont buy into prime tyson theory, his so called prime was when he was inexperienced so i dont see him beating many of the greats when he was young. when he was older he showed he didnt have the stamina to go 12 hard rounds.

tyson versus greats:-
jefferies ko tyson 17
johnson ko tyson 23
tyson ko dempsey 5
louis ko tyson 10
marciano ko tyson 8
liston ko tyson 7
ali ko tyson 12
frazier ko tyson 11
foreman ko tyson 7
holmes wpts tyson 12/15
holyfield ko tyson 11
bowe ko tyson 11
lewis ko tyson 9

I take it you hate Tyson. I'd have to disagree with you on some of your predictions. Bowe would have been masacred by Tyson. At his best Tyson was phenominal for 5 rounds then started to slow down. The question is after giving away 5 rounds to Tyson could you then come back into the fight and win it.

[mickeyb]

i dont hate him at all, just think he was very overated.

the fact is tyson ko'd a load of bums, got a title fight when very inexperienced, made a few defences against hand picked fighters, when he fought tougher opposition his performances were not as good and everyone puts it down to he was past his best.

none of the greats talked about above had it as easy as tyson did after they turned pro, even ali had it tougher. marciano had 40 fights before he had a title shot and he was white.

he did have power and speed but wasnt the best boxer i've ever seen, so my results indicate if any of them could take his shots or last 6 rounds they would beat him. i'd put him in top 20 but no where near top 5.

i dont think my reasons are that far fetched, most people would agree he did have it easier than others and his stats prove my theory on his stamina problems. therefore to put him in top 5 would mean he was overated. to put him top 3 would mean he was very overated.

[-CANE-]

i dont hate him at all, just think he was very overated.

the fact is tyson ko'd a load of bums, got a title fight when very inexperienced, made a few defences against hand picked fighters, when he fought tougher opposition his performances were not as good and everyone puts it down to he was past his best.

none of the greats talked about above had it as easy as tyson did after they turned pro, even ali had it tougher. marciano had 40 fights before he had a title shot and he was white.

he did have power and speed but wasnt the best boxer i've ever seen, so my results indicate if any of them could take his shots or last 6 rounds they would beat him. i'd put him in top 20 but no where near top 5.

i dont think my reasons are that far fetched, most people would agree he did have it easier than others and his stats prove my theory on his stamina problems. therefore to put him in top 5 would mean he was overated. to put him top 3 would mean he was very overated.

Interesting, I agree with you in that he was overated but I don't think he was as bad as your suggesting. I'd like to see your top heavies list stating why you rate each fighter where you do and the criteria you use for determining your outcome.

[mickeyb]

my champ and top 10 based on who comes out top if they all fought eachother:

CHAMP louis - no loses w10-L0
1. ali - lose to louis w9-L1
2. lewis - loses to top 2 w8-L2
3. holyfield - loses to top 3 and foreman w6-L4
4. foreman - loses to top 3 and holmes and johnson w5-L5
5. marciano - loses to top 5 w5-L5
6. holmes - loses to top 6 except foreman w5-L5
7. johnson - loses to top 7 except foreman w4-L6
8. dempsey - loses to all except frazier w1-L9
9.frazier - loses to all except tyson w1-L9
10.tyson - loses to all except dempsey w1-L9

[The Iron Man]

[QUOTE=hhascup;2689062] from the 6th round on was, 11 (6 KO) - 2 (1 TKO-BY) - 1.

NOTE: You had only 4 KO's for him, RTD is also scored as a knockout (I am one of the editors on Boxrec so I know).QUOTE]

Tyson also won a fight via RTD so in that case we can add another KO to tysons name in the late fights.

I have to leave for a lecture now, but ill post some more on it later, Btw it was a very nice post by you.

[hhascup]

my champ and top 10 based on who comes out top if they all fought eachother:

CHAMP louis - no loses w10-L0
1. ali - lose to louis w9-L1
2. lewis - loses to top 2 w8-L2
3. holyfield - loses to top 3 and foreman w6-L4
4. foreman - loses to top 3 and holmes and johnson w5-L5
5. marciano - loses to top 5 w5-L5
6. holmes - loses to top 6 except foreman w5-L5
7. johnson - loses to top 7 except foreman w4-L6
8. dempsey - loses to all except frazier w1-L9
9.frazier - loses to all except tyson w1-L9
10.tyson - loses to all except dempsey w1-L9

Interesting, BUT styles make fights and I really can't see Ali losing to Louis. Louis had trouble with boxers such as Conn, Farr, Charles & Walcott. Ali weighed approx. 20 to 40 pounds heavier then any of these and was even faster, both with his hands and feet. Even when Bert Sugar rated Louis #1, he said I am not saying that he would have beaten Ali, I am saying that he was the best overall.

I also think you under rate Tyson (215-220) a little. I don't think he would have too much trouble with small heavyweights that came to him, especially in the 1st several rounds. Rocky (5'10-1/4" - Mid 180's & a reach of only 68") didn't know how to back up, neither did Frazier (5'11-1/2" - 205-215) or Dempsey (6'1" - 185-192). Frazier would stand the best chance because he was closer to his size, weight and height. I also believe that Dempsey would have had a better chance then the Rock, again because of the size. Rocky also cut a lot easier then Frazier or Dempsey, and you would have to take that into account too, AND Rocky was also a somewhat slow starter. I know he had 11 First round knockouts, BUT 9 of them were against his first 14 opponents. Remember he was dropped by Walcott (1st round) and Moore (2nd round).

I am not saying that Tyson would beat all 3, BUT I am saying that they would have their hands full. The question would be, can they take Tyson into the later rounds, if they could, and that's a BIG could, then the tide would switch to them.