Top 10 Heavies from best to worst

[Obama]

[/B]

Wrong. Johnson wanted the payday that came with fighting white fighters. Thats all fine and good, but he deprived fighters who were worthy and of his own race the same opportunity he finally got. Whether he had beaten any of them before is irrelevant, as these guys worked their way back to the top. Sam Langford being a perfect example.

Opinions on what kind of man Jack Johnson was vary greatly and are entirely inconclusive. There is no right and wrong. Keep an open mind to the possibility.

[Kid McCoy]

Of course Johnson declined, he was ****y, not ******ED. That doesn't prove anything about Jeffries' cowardice. Fighting is done in the ring. A Black fighter today could be banned if he did such a thing, forget about the early 1900s.

Johnson not giving a title shot to people he already beat isn't "reprehensible" at all. He was a very defiant man who was trying to prove a point to the White world. He wanted to prove White superiority was a myth. What better way than to beat every top White contender they can throw at you?

So Jeffries gets no pass for ducking Johnson, but Johnson is excused not facing several top quality black heavyweights when he was champion?

Some of Johnson's results gave Jeffries every excuse not to face him. He was KO'd by Choynski, who Jeffries drew with in his 6th pro fight. He failed three times to beat Griffin, who Jeffries KO'd. Then there was the Hart debacle, by most accounts a lacklustre showing from both men. Had Johnson beaten Hart it would have been that much harder for Jeffries to retire without facing him.

Who were the top white contenders Johnson was facing to disprove ideas about white superiority, whilst ignoring Langford, Jeannette, McVea or even Wills? Fireman Flynn? Stanley Ketchel? Not quite murderers' row, are they?

[Obama]

So Jeffries gets no pass for ducking Johnson, but Johnson is excused not facing several top quality black heavyweights when he was champion?

Some of Johnson's results gave Jeffries every excuse not to face him. He was KO'd by Choynski, who Jeffries beat. He failed three times to beat Griffin, who Jeffries KO'd. Then there was the Hart debacle, by most accounts a lacklustre showing from both men. Had Johnson beaten Hart it would have been that much harder for Jeffries to retire without facing him.

Who were the top white contenders Johnson was facing to disprove ideas about white superiority, whilst ignoring Langford, Jeannette, McVea or even Wills? Fireman Flynn? Stanley Ketchel? Not quite murderers' row, are they?

You're clearly a hater if you bring up fights where Johnson was green and far from the fighter he became in his prime. And he beat Hart, consider it the original De La Hoya vs Trinidad.

Johnson fought whoever the White establishment put in front of him to fight. But I agree he got his best wins from winning the title and before.

This group of guys:

Frank Childs (x2)
George Gardner
Denver Ed Martin (x2)
Sam McVea (x3)
Sandy Ferguson (x3)
Black Bill (x4)
Jim Jeffords (x2)
Jack Munroe
Morris Harris
Joe Jeannette (x3)
Sam Langford
Bob Fitzsimmons
Tommy Burns

Clearly tops this group of guys:

Tony Ross
Al Kaufman
James J. Jeffries
Frank Moran

Wills is the only guy he didn't fight at some point that you mentioned, but it's because Wills is simply from a different era. Had they not falsely convicted Johnson of a federal crime and not exiled him from boxing on the main stage anymore, it may have went down. But it would have been a prime Wills against a post prime Johnson.

[LondonRingRules]

If a post prime Corbett (who was not the most durable fighter) could outbox a prime Jeffries for 22 rounds, I'm sure Johnson would have been able to do the same and go the distance. When Johnson fought Jeffries, he didn't just beat the man, he toyed with him from round 1. Jeffries at no point showed signs of promise. The man ducked Johnson when he was champ and karma came to bite him in the ass. All there is to it.

Had he fought Johnson and gave a great showing, he'd actually be rated higher today than he is (and this is assuming he still loses).

** Well, Obamy, it's like this sonny, you're giving our newly elected president a bad intellect by association. He's a pretty sharp operator. No so you. That ain't karma barking out your ass.

You suffer the bias of only seeing and then overmagnifying any negative traits of Jeffries, while ignoring any negative traits of Johnson and overmagnifying his positives.

Johnson has his chance but blew it with his loss to Hart which was an unofficial title eliminator. Jeffries wanted nothing to do with either, but Hart was the winner, so why ain't you hollering about Hart being ducked by Jeffries? Wrong color you say, eh?

Looks like Johnson was falling apart in imitation of Sandy Ferguson who was slated to fight Jeff, but got embarrassed in a couple of tuneup fights as Johnson took his place.

Without Jeff, Johnson is just the answer to a trivia question. Jeff made his fortune and his legend, which ironically led to his downfall. Johnson really starts to slide after that fight because he's too busy living the high life now.

No different in that regard than most of the heavy champs.

Gonna recommend Osamy for you Obamy. Osamy would pop his tunic in pride at the work you're putting in on the board.

[Kid McCoy]

You're clearly a hater if you bring up fights where Johnson was green and far from the fighter he became in his prime. And he beat Hart, consider it the original De La Hoya vs Trinidad.

Johnson fought whoever the White establishment put in front of him to fight. But I agree he got his best wins from winning the title and before.

This group of guys:

Frank Childs (x2)
George Gardner
Denver Ed Martin (x2)
Sam McVea (x3)
Sandy Ferguson (x3)
Black Bill (x4)
Jim Jeffords (x2)
Jack Munroe
Morris Harris
Joe Jeannette (x3)
Sam Langford
Bob Fitzsimmons
Tommy Burns

Clearly tops this group of guys:

Tony Ross
Al Kaufman
James J. Jeffries
Frank Moran

Wills is the only guy he didn't fight at some point that you mentioned, but it's because Wills is simply from a different era. Had they not falsely convicted Johnson of a federal crime and not exiled him from boxing on the main stage anymore, it may have went down. But it would have been a prime Wills against a post prime Johnson.

What's with all this "hater" stuff? There are valid reasons for criticizing any fighter without it being down to "hate". Those Johnson losses I listed occurred when Jeffries was champion, which leaves a fairly small window for him to have been legitimately ducking Johnson.

Johnson didn't just fight whoever the "white establishment" told him to fight. He had more control than that. There were various offers from white men who wanted to put on a Johnson-Langford rematch, which Johnson ignored. The National Sporting Club loaned Johnson the money to chase Burns to Australia, with the proviso that Johnson make his first defence against Langford in London, which he subsequently reneged on. Given how he ignored Langford, Jeannette and McVea as champion, I doubt he would have got round to facing Wills either had events panned out differently.

Did he beat Hart? It seems that Johnson was the better man when he chose to fight, but spent large spells coasting and generally not doing a lot. He knew from the outset that the referee favoured aggressors and disliked counterpunchers, so if he did fight as written it was an odd strategy given what was at stake. The Police Gazette opined that based on that showing, neither man deserved a title shot.

[Obama]

What's with all this "hater" stuff? There are valid reasons for criticizing any fighter without it being down to "hate". Those Johnson losses I listed occurred when Jeffries was champion, which leaves a fairly small window for him to have been legitimately ducking Johnson.

Johnson didn't just fight whoever the "white establishment" told him to fight. He had more control than that. There were various offers from white men who wanted to put on a Johnson-Langford rematch, which Johnson ignored. The National Sporting Club loaned Johnson the money to chase Burns to Australia, with the proviso that Johnson make his first defence against Langford in London, which he subsequently reneged on. Given how he ignored Langford, Jeannette and McVea as champion, I doubt he would have got round to facing Wills either had events panned out differently.

Did he beat Hart? It seems that Johnson was the better man when he chose to fight, but spent large spells coasting and generally not doing a lot. He knew from the outset that the referee favoured aggressors and disliked counterpunchers, so if he did fight as written it was an odd strategy given what was at stake. The Police Gazette opined that based on that showing, neither man deserved a title shot.

As Champion he prolly wouldn't have faced Wills, but he'd of faced him after losing his title. He remained undefeated for another decade after losing the title...pretty sure he was still interested in fighting and earning his way back to another title shot had he been given the opportunity.

[JAB5239]

What's with all this "hater" stuff? There are valid reasons for criticizing any fighter without it being down to "hate". Those Johnson losses I listed occurred when Jeffries was champion, which leaves a fairly small window for him to have been legitimately ducking Johnson.

Johnson didn't just fight whoever the "white establishment" told him to fight. He had more control than that. There were various offers from white men who wanted to put on a Johnson-Langford rematch, which Johnson ignored. The National Sporting Club loaned Johnson the money to chase Burns to Australia, with the proviso that Johnson make his first defence against Langford in London, which he subsequently reneged on. Given how he ignored Langford, Jeannette and McVea as champion, I doubt he would have got round to facing Wills either had events panned out differently.

Did he beat Hart? It seems that Johnson was the better man when he chose to fight, but spent large spells coasting and generally not doing a lot. He knew from the outset that the referee favoured aggressors and disliked counterpunchers, so if he did fight as written it was an odd strategy given what was at stake. The Police Gazette opined that based on that showing, neither man deserved a title shot.

What a great post!

[Jim Jeffries]

Doesn't it somewhat hinder your enjoyment of the sport if you limit the fighters you enjoy watching by their colour? Or am I being extremely naive here?

Good arguments can be made for and against that position. It's not naive.

So good arguments can be made for limiting the fighters you enjoy watching by their color? Please, do tell.

And who cares if Johnson toyed with Jeffries for 15 rounds, when Jim hadn't fought in SIX YEARS, had to lose over 80 lbs, and as you've already been told, wasn't very active for a couple of years prior to that 6 year layoff?

[Obama]

So good arguments can be made for limiting the fighters you enjoy watching by their color? Please, do tell.

There's this thing called relativity. For a racist person, what he's going to enjoy cannot be measured by the same standard as a person who isn't. They can't enjoy things for what they really are if they hate them for what they appear to be.

[Jim Jeffries]

There's this thing called relativity. For a racist person, what he's going to enjoy cannot be measured by the same standard as a person who isn't. They can't enjoy things for what they really are if they hate them for what they appear to be.

Sounds like you're speaking from experience. I'll take your word for it. Personally I've enjoyed watching fighters of all races ever since Mike Tyson made me a fan back in the late 80's. If you take the blinders off, you'll enrich your experience, trust me.