Rating old heavyweights?

[Marchegiano]

I talk about Dempsey loads these days because I struggle with it myself.

More often than not posters here would be reading my stances against Dempsey. That's mostly because I went from absolutely loving Jack to not being sure where he ranks as an ATG, or, worse still, do I see him as an ATG at all?

Sullivan I have researched and debated and closed the book on. He's hardly a world champion of anything. What he really was, was a figure head for a economic and political movement that swept through America. Sully is the last true london prizering champion but his credentials as a world hw champion are he drew the english champ and then the colorline. It's not a moral stance and I can't stress that enough. I don't mind historical people being racist, like at all. I don't hold it against them, I don't care. It kind of comes with the eras. However, to be the HW champion you need to win, to be a world champion you need to fight the world's best, at least some of them, and to be the Queensberry champion you need to fight Queensberry rules. John L really fought a hybrid most of his career with the one QB title fight that was true to QB and not mixed with LPR ended in a draw....so, I have a very hard time seeing John L. as a true world HW champion. This whole "but X did not press the issue" doesn't really matter to me when Y didn't do anything worthy of world champion status.

Okay but after Sully we get a run of really great champions. Despite the colorline, these next few men and even the pretense champions of their era, are proper world champions because they all fought on a true world level under set and clearly defined rules. Corbett- Johnson may not have fought any or many colored, black, or negro HW champions as champions but they all did prior to being the world champion. Jeffries, I believe, is the greatest of that era because he went out of his way to force all roads to lead to him. He beat the colored champion, the foreign champions, and the alternative champion that came from the lineage that spawned when Corbett retired. By the time he is champion there really is no logical contenders.

Then we get Willard who ****** eggs. I mean he fought no one, his being placed in front of Johnson was kind of lottery for any man his size, and no one even know if old man johnson, who was old as **** by then, even lost or just did the favor.

Dempsey slides in as the man killer but is one foray in the ring with a black American saw him take an L deemed a draw because one of three sources called it a draw, the other two called it a loss. Jack bothers to fight one or two of the best contenders of his era while making a killing off of colored champion's leftovers. He fights two whole different foreign fighters for his world credentials and both those guys have loses to the colored champions of his era. I'd have no problem with Dempsey if he fought one of the many talented colored champions of his era prior to fighting Willard, but he didn't. Where everyone between and including Corbett and Johnson have wins over championships that call into question the legitimacy of the so called world champion Dempsey does not.

That said, I'm not sure JD has an ATG resume. He seems like a hypejob to me. However, what is also true is these great colored champions could all very well have been saved by not being KTFO by Jack Dempsey. I don't give Langford, Wills, or Norfolk the nod just because Dempsey used racism to duck on a level no one had prior except Sullivan. They never beat Jack, Jack never beat them, the whole entire era takes a hit because of the question. Who really was HW champion after Jack Johnson?

Sad truth is, to me, From Dempsey to Braddock everyone is questionable. Boxing becomes very political. I'm not sure we a have a true HW champion after Johnson before Charles. Tunney and Louis being the hardest to argue against but still suspect enough to me given the long count and fascism of each's era.

[GhostofDempsey]

I talk about Dempsey loads these days because I struggle with it myself.

More often than not posters here would be reading my stances against Dempsey. That's mostly because I went from absolutely loving Jack to not being sure where he ranks as an ATG, or, worse still, do I see him as an ATG at all?

Sullivan I have researched and debated and closed the book on. He's hardly a world champion of anything. What he really was, was a figure head for a economic and political movement that swept through America. Sully is the last true london prizering champion but his credentials as a world hw champion are he drew the english champ and then the colorline. It's not a moral stance and I can't stress that enough. I don't mind historical people being racist, like at all. I don't hold it against them, I don't care. It kind of comes with the eras. However, to be the HW champion you need to win, to be a world champion you need to fight the world's best, at least some of them, and to be the Queensberry champion you need to fight Queensberry rules. John L really fought a hybrid most of his career with the one QB title fight that was true to QB and not mixed with LPR ended in a draw....so, I have a very hard time seeing John L. as a true world HW champion. This whole "but X did not press the issue" doesn't really matter to me when Y didn't do anything worthy of world champion status.

Okay but after Sully we get a run of really great champions. Despite the colorline, these next few men and even the pretense champions of their era, are proper world champions because they all fought on a true world level under set and clearly defined rules. Corbett- Johnson may not have fought any or many colored, black, or negro HW champions as champions but they all did prior to being the world champion. Jeffries, I believe, is the greatest of that era because he went out of his way to force all roads to lead to him. He beat the colored champion, the foreign champions, and the alternative champion that came from the lineage that spawned when Corbett retired. By the time he is champion there really is no logical contenders.

Then we get Willard who ****** eggs. I mean he fought no one, his being placed in front of Johnson was kind of lottery for any man his size, and no one even know if old man johnson, who was old as **** by then, even lost or just did the favor.

Dempsey slides in as the man killer but is one foray in the ring with a black American saw him take an L deemed a draw because one of three sources called it a draw, the other two called it a loss. Jack bothers to fight one or two of the best contenders of his era while making a killing off of colored champion's leftovers. He fights two whole different foreign fighters for his world credentials and both those guys have loses to the colored champions of his era. I'd have no problem with Dempsey if he fought one of the many talented colored champions of his era prior to fighting Willard, but he didn't. Where everyone between and including Corbett and Johnson have wins over championships that call into question the legitimacy of the so called world champion Dempsey does not.

That said, I'm not sure JD has an ATG resume. He seems like a hypejob to me. However, what is also true is these great colored champions could all very well have been saved by not being KTFO by Jack Dempsey. I don't give Langford, Wills, or Norfolk the nod just because Dempsey used racism to duck on a level no one had prior except Sullivan. They never beat Jack, Jack never beat them, the whole entire era takes a hit because of the question. Who really was HW champion after Jack Johnson?

Sad truth is, to me, From Dempsey to Braddock everyone is questionable. Boxing becomes very political. I'm not sure we a have a true HW champion after Johnson before Charles. Tunney and Louis being the hardest to argue against but still suspect enough to me given the long count and fascism of each's era.

Dempsey would have whipped Marciano’s ass. Only someone who doesn’t know anything about boxing would trivialize Dempsey’s career. You’ve never read a book about the man. You’re another Google bot who cherry picks his “facts”.

[QueensburyRules]

I talk about Dempsey loads these days because I struggle with it myself.

More often than not posters here would be reading my stances against Dempsey. That's mostly because I went from absolutely loving Jack to not being sure where he ranks as an ATG, or, worse still, do I see him as an ATG at all?

Sullivan I have researched and debated and closed the book on. He's hardly a world champion of anything. What he really was, was a figure head for a economic and political movement that swept through America. Sully is the last true london prizering champion but his credentials as a world hw champion are he drew the english champ and then the colorline. It's not a moral stance and I can't stress that enough. I don't mind historical people being racist, like at all. I don't hold it against them, I don't care. It kind of comes with the eras. However, to be the HW champion you need to win, to be a world champion you need to fight the world's best, at least some of them, and to be the Queensberry champion you need to fight Queensberry rules. John L really fought a hybrid most of his career with the one QB title fight that was true to QB and not mixed with LPR ended in a draw....so, I have a very hard time seeing John L. as a true world HW champion. This whole "but X did not press the issue" doesn't really matter to me when Y didn't do anything worthy of world champion status.

Okay but after Sully we get a run of really great champions. Despite the colorline, these next few men and even the pretense champions of their era, are proper world champions because they all fought on a true world level under set and clearly defined rules. Corbett- Johnson may not have fought any or many colored, black, or negro HW champions as champions but they all did prior to being the world champion. Jeffries, I believe, is the greatest of that era because he went out of his way to force all roads to lead to him. He beat the colored champion, the foreign champions, and the alternative champion that came from the lineage that spawned when Corbett retired. By the time he is champion there really is no logical contenders.

Then we get Willard who ****** eggs. I mean he fought no one, his being placed in front of Johnson was kind of lottery for any man his size, and no one even know if old man johnson, who was old as **** by then, even lost or just did the favor.

Dempsey slides in as the man killer but is one foray in the ring with a black American saw him take an L deemed a draw because one of three sources called it a draw, the other two called it a loss. Jack bothers to fight one or two of the best contenders of his era while making a killing off of colored champion's leftovers. He fights two whole different foreign fighters for his world credentials and both those guys have loses to the colored champions of his era. I'd have no problem with Dempsey if he fought one of the many talented colored champions of his era prior to fighting Willard, but he didn't. Where everyone between and including Corbett and Johnson have wins over championships that call into question the legitimacy of the so called world champion Dempsey does not.

That said, I'm not sure JD has an ATG resume. He seems like a hypejob to me. However, what is also true is these great colored champions could all very well have been saved by not being KTFO by Jack Dempsey. I don't give Langford, Wills, or Norfolk the nod just because Dempsey used racism to duck on a level no one had prior except Sullivan. They never beat Jack, Jack never beat them, the whole entire era takes a hit because of the question. Who really was HW champion after Jack Johnson?

Sad truth is, to me, From Dempsey to Braddock everyone is questionable. Boxing becomes very political. I'm not sure we a have a true HW champion after Johnson before Charles. Tunney and Louis being the hardest to argue against but still suspect enough to me given the long count and fascism of each's era.

- -Most of Dempsey's sparring partners were black and he took Big Bill Tate with him to Hollywood to train for multiple busted Wills contracts and took some stick by allowing him to live with Jack. Photos of the Willard fight would seem to show Tate in his corner. As a kid he worked in a Salt Lake City boxing gym run by a known black fighter whose name escapes me, but he also had unofficial fights there, but not a lot of blacks in his part of the country much less black fighters and only came East to make his name with Wills being the last relevant contender of note.

Racism and genocide are modern terminology unknown to ancients, so before slinging arrows and fire on ancients, clean up your own fetid generation, and good luck with that!

[travestyny]

IMHO

Miske was a friend and the second fight was a payday for an ailing friend. --- Why is Billy Miske in the HOF if he was such a bum?

Also if you look closer you will see that Dempsey's run to the championship fight was a series of KOs, (see Tyson) that is except for one strange fight that stands out, a 10 round NWS decision with Billy Miske (Ist fight). Dempsey didn't want to pound on his friend, so he spared with him.

Dempsey, so the story goes, then took Miske out early in the second fight because he didn't want to brutalize Miske, he was at the time ailing.

I found this interesting.


So when he didn't get the knockout, it was because Dempsey didn't want to pound on him....but then in the next fight when he got the knockout....it's because he didn't want to pound on him?

Why didn't he just spar with him again in the second fight....or why didn't he just take him out early in the first fight?

[travestyny]

Most of the very greatest black fighters were part white (Clay, Leonard, Mayweather, Jones, Foreman et al), but the reverse is not true at all.

You really do have some racial issues don't you?


Quick, let's claim the great Black boxers for the white team

[Marchegiano]

Dempsey would have whipped Marciano’s ass. Only someone who doesn’t know anything about boxing would trivialize Dempsey’s career. You’ve never read a book about the man. You’re another Google bot who cherry picks his “facts”.

Bio books are for fan girls. I prefer era specific instead of character specific.

One sure fire way to read a bias piece is to grab a bio book. In a bio book about Dempsey he never ducked Norfolk or Wills or Jeanette and so on and might have even whooped JJ in a hushed contest. In a bio books about Norfolk, Wills, Langford, etc not only did Dempsey duck but the story about Dempsey fighting JJ was made up in the 80s.

Far as Marciano vs Dempsey and that having some bearing on any understanding boxing, fan girl, Mike Paul's ratings are based solely off performances against other rated fighters. The historian has Marciano at 4 and Dempsey at 12

Ring has Marciano at 4 and Dempsey at 6 - May 2017

Boxrec has Marciano at 4 and Dempsey at 34

Sport Bible has Marciano at 3 and Dempsey at 30

In fact I struggle to find a published ranking that places Dempsey in the top five let alone ahead of Rocky. He's not even close and in a h2h Dempsey would have been murdered. There's no reason to believe Roland LaStarza, Rex Layne, or Harry Matthews couldn't and wouldn't have beaten Dempsey's whole resume, and, plenty of reason to believe Demspey would have been licked by Charles, Walcott, and Moore.

It's crazy you'd want to draw the comparison. Dempsey's not even close to Marciano.

[Marchegiano]

- -Most of Dempsey's sparring partners were black and he took Big Bill Tate with him to Hollywood to train for multiple busted Wills contracts and took some stick by allowing him to live with Jack. Photos of the Willard fight would seem to show Tate in his corner. As a kid he worked in a Salt Lake City boxing gym run by a known black fighter whose name escapes me, but he also had unofficial fights there, but not a lot of blacks in his part of the country much less black fighters and only came East to make his name with Wills being the last relevant contender of note.

Racism and genocide are modern terminology unknown to ancients, so before slinging arrows and fire on ancients, clean up your own fetid generation, and good luck with that!

Racism or no, men who did not fight the best of their era do not deserve benefit of doubt when compared to men who did. Under that Dempsey is second to many. His entire era is.

[QueensburyRules]

Racism or no, men who did not fight the best of their era do not deserve benefit of doubt when compared to men who did. Under that Dempsey is second to many. His entire era is.

- -Ibro ranks him quite high well over his contemporaries and many popular fighters.

He expanded the international presence of the pro sport and helped the domestic scene with legalization of the most popular sport save baseball that never suffered from being outlawed by authorities.

Sorry , but U suffer from the fate of most moderns in their day thinking their automatically superior to previous gens who laid the foundations for modern advances.

In short, you sound like a noob.

[Marchegiano]

- -Ibro ranks him quite high well over his contemporaries and many popular fighters.

He expanded the international presence of the pro sport and helped the domestic scene with legalization of the most popular sport save baseball that never suffered from being outlawed by authorities.

Sorry , but U suffer from the fate of most moderns in their day thinking their automatically superior to previous gens who laid the foundations for modern advances.

In short, you sound like a noob.

The men who came before him did more.

The IBRO is a circle jerk. Authors boasting authors to sell books and little else.

Being the poster child doesn't mean Dempsey did anything. the NYSAC and NBA grew boxing. Dempsey was just there. In fact, youse should point to the NYSAC more often as a reason for Dempsey ducking Wills. The NYSAC blocked that didn't they? At least once.

Modern? No, let me be clear, Corbett is a better champion, Fitzs is a better champion, Jeffries is way beyond Dempsey, Hart is a better champion, Burns is a better champion, Johnson is a better champion, Willard is a lesser champion. Only one man prior to Jack I'd rate under Jack. It's not modernism or the idea newer is better, it's Jack didn't make a statement, he rode a wave.

It was convenience and little else that made Dempsey huge. Dempsey vs Carpentier is possibly the biggest hypejob with the lowest talent ever produced in the HW title scene. Carpentier was ****. He was **** going in, he was **** prior, he was **** after, dude was just ****.

No one on anyone else's resume is so ****ty while pundits pretend they are not. Everyone calls Mormeck ****, people like to pretend Georges was something though. That's my beef. When you start calling Georges **** too then we will have middle ground but as it is you're reaching for explanations to justify my stance that are not needed for the justification.

It's not because I like Rock, or because I think Fury is anything special, it's because Jack's resume is poor while folks act like it was braggable.

It's a shameful resume from a shameful era. No platitude is going to save that.

[Willie Pep 229]

I found this interesting.


So when he didn't get the knockout, it was because Dempsey didn't want to pound on him....but then in the next fight when he got the knockout....it's because he didn't want to pound on him?

Why didn't he just spar with him again in the second fight....or why didn't he just take him out early in the first fight?

I found it strange too . . . two possibilities come to mind . . . that I am incorrect when Miske started to become ill, it may have been after the Dempsey fight (II) --- because after the Dempsey fight (II) he goes on to fight some serious competition, e.g Tommy Gibbons twice. So maybe he wasn't ill when he met Dempsey the second time, but he is dead the first month of '24.

The other possibility; friend or no friend the title was on the line so Miske had to go. I don't buy into this: Dempsey no doubt carried Carpentier and Dempsey was too confident of a fightr to fight in panic.

The first fight I am comfortable in believing he just sparred with his friend. Dempsey at that point was on a KO run that would make Mike Tyson envy (check out his 1918-1919 run) and the 10 round NWS against Miske stands out as an oddity.

It would be the only KD Miske ever suffered. While others were winning UD/NWS Dempsey was taking everyone out.