Does Ali need Leon Spinks?

[K-DOGG]

Ali came into the Young fight overweight, overconfident, undertrained and looked awful. I don't have an issue with anyone's opinion who thinks Young deserved the fight.

The problem I have with giving Young the title is that not only did he fight a mainly passive fight, on 6 different occasions he stuck his head through the ropes to avoid being punched, an illegal tactic that Young should have been deducted points or outright disqualified.

Sticking your head through the ropes to avoid an opponent's punches is in my view an act of surrender and no different to me than a fighter wilfully taking a knee and a mandatory 8 count, which would have been the approximate amount of breathing room Young was afforded each time the referee had to intervene between the fighters so Young could free himself from the ropes. It was an illegal tactic that was used for the sole purpose of avoiding engaging. Unfortunately it was a tactic not seen before in a heavyweight title fight and the referee didn't know how to deal with it. While the referee didn't penalize Young for his passive tactics, obviously the judges did.

If you think Ali getting the decision holds some controversy today, I can assure you that had the judges awarded the 17-4-2 Young the most prestigious title in sports while utilizing those tactics the controversy at the time would have been ten times worse.

Thanks for that insightful view. From all I've read of the fight, that is accurate; and, on a personal note. Young, while clever, has annoyed me the few times I've seen him, for the very reason you discribed...his passivity. I'd read of him sticking his head through the ropes in the Ali fight and even thought I haven't seen it yet, I agree with your attitude. If you're fighting for the World's Richest Prize, you shouldn't be rewarded for "surviviing".....it's just "un-champion-like".

[Mike Tyson77]

That list is a mixture of accomplishments and head to head matchups. Jack Johnson doesnt deserve to be in it. .

YES HE DOES. He beat the best fighters out there and had to put up with crap you couldnt imagine.

[Kid Achilles]

I think Jack Johnson may be the most maligned fighter on this forum. I don't know why for sure, but so many hate him. I believe he's unquestionably a top ten heavyweight of all time.

[brownpimp88]

I think Jack Johnson may be the most maligned fighter on this forum. I don't know why for sure, but so many hate him. I believe he's unquestionably a top ten heavyweight of all time.

based on being a pioner, or the guys u successfully defended ur belt against. Even the real mike tyson says johnson isnt that good.

[K-DOGG]

based on being a pioner, or the guys u successfully defended ur belt against. Even the real mike tyson says johnson isnt that good.

Johnson beat the best white and black heavyweights on the way to the crown, is argueably one of the best defensive fighters of all time...making hiim an inovator.

He is Top 10, easy...Top 5 to be truthful.

[brownpimp88]

Johnson beat the best white and black heavyweights on the way to the crown, is argueably one of the best defensive fighters of all time...making hiim an inovator.

He is Top 10, easy...Top 5 to be truthful.

dude mike tyson respects old timers like rocky, dempsey and liston. However, he says jack johnson really isnt that good, he got dropped by a 160lbser. That equals glass chin.

[K-DOGG]

dude mike tyson respects old timers like rocky, dempsey and liston. However, he says jack johnson really isnt that good, he got dropped by a 160lbser. That equals glass chin.

From what I recall, Mike said he wasn't that good because he was "boring"....it had nothing to do with how accomplished or skilled a fighter he was....it was about him not being an audience pleasing fighter.

..,.and the Choynski loss was the best thing that could have happened to Johnson. Joe gave Jack some pointers while they were in jail together and told him with the skills he had, no fighter should ever be able to lay a glove on him. Jack followed the advice and the rest is history.

Joe was a great old fighter who was a "sharp shooter."

[brownpimp88]

From what I recall, Mike said he wasn't that good because he was "boring"....it had nothing to do with how accomplished or skilled a fighter he was....it was about him not being an audience pleasing fighter.

..,.and the Choynski loss was the best thing that could have happened to Johnson. Joe gave Jack some pointers while they were in jail together and told him with the skills he had, no fighter should ever be able to lay a glove on him. Jack followed the advice and the rest is history.

Joe was a great old fighter who was a "sharp shooter."

Jack was a selfish idiot. He bashed joe louis for winning the belt cuz he wanted to be the only black champ. He drew the colour line cuz he didnt want another black to win the title. The guy doesnt even throw combos for god's sakes.

[K-Nan]

I think Jack Johnson may be the most maligned fighter on this forum. I don't know why for sure, but so many hate him. I believe he's unquestionably a top ten heavyweight of all time.

This is probably from the disinterest you'll find people have towards the older era's of boxing.

[Kid Achilles]

Getting KO'ed by Choynski when you're young and green was not a shameful thing, I don't care what he weighed. He hit Jim Jeffries so hard his teeth went through his lip. They had to cut his lip open just to dettach it from his teeth. I believe he said that was the hardest punch he received in his career.

Choynski was a very hard, swift, and accurate straight puncher. The kind of guy that could time it right and knock just about anyone out. You read 160 lbs and think that he couldn't hit but that's just not the case here. Did Johnson have a great chin? No, clearly not. But he wasn't going to go down from a jab or the first serious punch he got hit with.