best Ali fights?

[Yogi]

You are a sick dude.

Yeah well, forgive me for adding a little original information to a thread and potential discussion that's been done to death many times over again...

You may not like what I posted, but I'm sure those sparring sessions & descriptions (and what happened in them) are/were largely unknown to the vast majority of people on here, and maybe even a few of those people would actually want info like that as to what happened to Ali when he wasn't in the spotlight and whatnot.

[butterfly1964]

Yeah well, forgive me for adding a little original information to a thread and potential discussion that's been done to death many times over again...

You may not like what I posted, but I'm sure those sparring sessions & descriptions (and what happened in them) are/were largely unknown to the vast majority of people on here, and maybe even a few of those people would actually want info like that as to what happened to Ali when he wasn't in the spotlight and whatnot.

[Yogi]

Here Butterfly, seeing as how I can be an equal opportunist at times and seeing as how I possibly upset you with that Ali info, allow me to post this info regarding one of my favourite heavyweights and one of your least favourite;

"Heavyweight Champion Rocky Marciano was knocked down Wednesday during a sparring session with Toxie Hall in preparation for his title defense against England's Don ****ell." - May 5th, 1955 edition of the Albuquerque Journal

That knock down is also mentioned in Skeehan's bio on Marciano, although they don't mention Toxie Hall by name, just that "during a sparring session shortly before the fight, a powerful punch to the chin sent Rocky to the canvas".


*Editted because I originally gave the wrong date of that source.

[butterfly1964]

Here Butterfly, seeing as how I can be an equal opportunist at times and seeing as how I possibly upset you with that Ali info, allow me to post this info regarding one of my favourite heavyweights and one of your least favourite;

"Heavyweight Champion Rocky Marciano was knocked down Wednesday during a sparring session with Toxie Hall in preparation for his title defense against England's Don ****ell." - Nov 5th, 1955 edition of the Albuquerque Journal

That knock down is also mentioned in Skeehan's bio on Marciano, although they don't mention Toxie Hall by name, just that "during a sparring session shortly before the fight, a powerful punch to the chin sent Rocky to the canvas".

I'll repeat that I have nothing against the man personally, but I do admit that his style does not impress me that much. However, he got the job done, and that's what counts.

[SABBATH]

Different fighters use their sparring sessions differently, and use their partners accordingly. Ali didn't throw a whole hell of alot of punches at his sparring partners, instead using the heavybag to sharpen his punching. He laid back alot and worked on holding, wrestling, blocking, covering up etc...Additionally Ali always sparred last in his training sessions and would enter the ring against fresh sparring partners after he was already fatigued from a full workout. I put no more stock in Ali getting floored by Eddie Brooks than I do Rocky Marciano by Toxie Hall, Joe Louis by Eddie Malcolm or Mike Tyson by Greg Page.

In 1984 I attended Aaron Pryor's training camp for the final two weeks when he was preparing to fight Nicky Furlano. Pryor's chief sparring partner was an 18 year old amateur. I watched this kid everyday not only hold his own but often land more, win more rounds and even floor Pryor. In fact the kid did far better on a daily basis that P4P ATG Alexis Arguello had done against Pryor in a 'real' fight 9 months earlier. Pryor clearly utilized this kid differently than he did one of his other spar mates Darryl Anthony who at the time was a promising welterweight prospect who would KO Bobby Joe Young the following year. Pryor handled Anthony easily.

[The Raging Bull]

Different fighters use their sparring sessions differently, and use their partners accordingly. Ali didn't throw a whole hell of alot of punches at his sparring partners, instead using the heavybag to sharpen his punching. He laid back alot and worked on holding, wrestling, blocking, covering up etc...Additionally Ali always sparred last in his training sessions and would enter the ring against fresh sparring partners after he was already fatigued from a full workout. I put no more stock in Ali getting floored by Eddie Brooks than I do Rocky Marciano by Toxie Hall, Joe Louis by Eddie Malcolm or Mike Tyson by Greg Page.

In 1984 I attended Aaron Pryor's training camp for the final two weeks when he was preparing to fight Nicky Furlano. Pryor's chief sparring partner was an 18 year old amateur. I watched this kid everyday not only hold his own but often land more, win more rounds and even floor Pryor. In fact the kid did far better on a daily basis that P4P ATG Alexis Arguello had done against Pryor in a 'real' fight 9 months earlier. Pryor clearly utilized this kid differently than he did one of his other spar mates Darryl Anthony who at the time was a promising welterweight prospect who would KO Bobby Joe Young the following year. Pryor handled Anthony easily.

Thanks for the information Sabbath. I love reading your posts.

Ali used to use sparring to work on his weaknesses and was often flat footed and let his sparring partner hit him clean on his chin to test it.

In my opinion, this is why Ali was so great. He wasn't scared to look at his weaknesses and work on them, whereas many other fighters try to conceal them.

[SABBATH]

I tried to post some pictures I have of those Pryor training sessions but I'm not having much luck. I'll keep trying...

[Yogi]

This "laid back alot" reasoning might have some merit in the 70's (also knocked down twice in the same round while sparring for the Shavers fight), but I have trouble thinking it has nearly as much merit in the 1960's when Ali was dropped in sparring on at least a few more occasions (pre-Liston I, June of '64, training for the first Chuvalo fight, etc), especially when I'm seeing reports of Ali "giving two sparring partners their worst beating of the training period" (UPI Feb 4th, 1967) and the descriptions of the "serious sparring" sessions he had with the likes of Mel Turnbow (whom Ali knocked down in sparring on at least two occasions during 1966 sessions, as well as reportedly being knocked down twice by Turnbow himself, according to the Mar 22nd, 1966 edition of The Daily Times).

I see at least a dozen reported knockdowns suffered by Ali in sparring, and that's spanning his whole championship level career...That's also not including the ones against the 19 year-old British middleweight, Jimmy Tibbs, just in case you're wondering.

[SABBATH]

Ok I got it.

[SABBATH]

Thanks for the information Sabbath. I love reading your posts.

I finally figured it out! Here's some pictures I took June 1984 of Aaron Pryor training for the Nicky Furlano fight.

[IMG]http://i134.***********.com/albums/q88/SABBATH_05/gloves4.jpg[/IMG]