What if Clay/Ali had lost to Sonny Liston?

[Brockton Lip]

Agreed. People overestimate Foreman against swarmers. Yes he defeated the ones he faced and would have a great chance at beating all others because of the style but Foreman was beatable. If Frazier had a better chin, it could be a great fight but who knows for sure.

[Liaison]

Yes, Smokin was past it in 73 but Prime Joe still fights on the inside were he is vulnerable to the big man. Grillman is the only guy In H/W boxing history that I can assuredly say Frazier loses against time and time again…

Like most i doubt Prime Joe would be finsihed by 2 with george, but i can't see him passed 7 before the ref says thats enough.

[hemichromis]

There is great validity to your line of thinking, Kid. The Frazier after Ali I had lost something...how could he not?

However, I do think styles make fights; and it's hard for me to imagine Frazier beating Foreman. Like Butterfly, I think it might have lasted longer; but with George's uppercuts being a constant.. Well, you see my point.

i don't know if its the ali fight or the foreman fight but frazier had lost head movement and power by the time he faced ali the second time

i like butterflys hypothetical best (big foreman fan here)
but foreman wouldn't have changed he would have stil fought the way he did stil be hated by crowds oddly enough i think losing to ali was good for foreman!

foreman and holmes were the same age i can imagine a few fights between the two maybe a trilogy although at this age their was't a great deal of fighters in that calibre so there may be more;i'd favour foreman overall but it would be close at this age.

ali would have recieved less publicity and so holmes wouldn't bad mouth him so much. that combined with his wars with foreman would make him a fan favourate!

[LondonRingRules]

Clay was the obvious underdog against Liston in the 1st fight, therefore, it represented a huge risk by the company (of which Sonny was a partner) buying rights to a fight when apparently Clay was facing almost certain defeat in a fight before that!

Everyone knows the allegations made about the rematch, but the su****ion and troubles reagarding the 1st fight were such that many states wouldn't even sanction the rematch.

What are your thoughts, if any, on this?

** The reason young Clay was a huge underdog is because he'd been KD'd by Banks, struggled mightily against Jones, and got knocked back to Louisville by Cooper, but controversely managed to secure the wins against all.

Liston may have thrown both fights, but at very least was poorly trained for the first and was afraid of assassination attempts in the 2nd as well as the first.

In retrospect, no modern manager would want to push a young immature fighter like Clay into such a lopsided match on paper against a monster like Liston, but the fight was made and now there will always be doubts about those fights, along with many others Ali had later. Eventually he would have held the title, but to much less acclaim.

[butterfly1964]

** The reason young Clay was a huge underdog is because he'd been KD'd by Banks, struggled mightily against Jones, and got knocked back to Louisville by Cooper, but controversely managed to secure the wins against all.

Liston may have thrown both fights, but at very least was poorly trained for the first and was afraid of assassination attempts in the 2nd as well as the first.

In retrospect, no modern manager would want to push a young immature fighter like Clay into such a lopsided match on paper against a monster like Liston, but the fight was made and now there will always be doubts about those fights, along with many others Ali had later. Eventually he would have held the title, but to much less acclaim.

Youre an idiot.

[QueensburyRules]

There are plenty of rumours behind both Clay/Ali V Liston fights i.e. In the 1st Liston V Clay fight, Clay (as he was named then) wanted to quit at the end of the fourth round claiming that he had difficulty with his vision, but Angelo Dundee convinced him to continue with the fight, and at the end of the fifth round his vision had returned which enabled the referee to let the fight continue, as it was claimed that the referee was about to stop the fight and award a TKO to Liston! Then of course, Liston failed to emerge for the seventh round claiming that he had a numbness in his left arm!

Many believe that Liston had thrown the fight and it soon emerged that a promotions company of which Sonny was a partner had contracted with a Louisville group who held promotions with Clay/Ali. The contract involved the costly purchase of the rights to promote Clay's next fight, which was the fight after the 1st Liston fight and which was contracted prior to the first Liston fight!!!
Clay was the obvious underdog against Liston in the 1st fight, therefore, it represented a huge risk by the company (of which Sonny was a partner) buying rights to a fight when apparently Clay was facing almost certain defeat in a fight before that!

Everyone knows the allegations made about the rematch, but the su****ion and troubles reagarding the 1st fight were such that many states wouldn't even sanction the rematch.

What are your thoughts, if any, on this?

- -Another layer of controversy that forever dooms this series to ever more controversy, the gift that keeps on giving until this world of ours is finally torn asunder forever more, forever more...

[HOUDINI563]

Ali beat Joe 2 out of three stopping him in Manila.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Couldn't win FOC to save his life, his biggest fight where his regrettable racial slurs failed him.

That served to humiliate him publicly forever more, forever more...

[HOUDINI563]

Ali was 5 months off a 3.5 year layoff when he fought Frazier in 1971. He was rushed into that first fight before he was in shape to do so. The last two fights he was in shape and won both.

[HOUDINI563]

Both Ali Liston bouts were officially investigated and nothing was found to indicate a fix. After fight 2 the FBI conducted a one year investigation to try to unearth evidence that either both was fixed. The investigation was given up as no evidence was found.