Why it's illegal to say Usyk is better than Ali

Not illegal, unless it's illegal to have a warped opinion :dunno:

Ali had a superior resume to Usyk. Period. Ali also accomplished more for humanity than any boxer that has every lived. Usyk, who? Unless Usyk singlehandedly stopped the Russian invasion of Ukraine by getting the ear of Putin he has no chance to be anything close to Ali outside the ring. Also Ali way back in the 90's helped release the foreign hostages held by the equally diabolical Saddam Hussein. Until my last breath I will never forget the scene where Saddam patted the head of the British child and had the look of the fat cat playing with a mouse while doing this for foreign media.

You are too much into conspiracies. Usyk isn’t getting the same pub as if he were from those countries. That I agree with. There’s a video making the rounds on Twitter which shows Fury exposing the secret scheme. “He (Usyk) is a foreigner in a westernized world. The heavyweight champion should be from the United States or Great Britain. Nowhere else. That’s it.”​ “The heavyweight champion of the world needs to be from the west. That’s it. That’s how it goes. Britain or America are not interested in some Ukrainian boxer.” https://ringobserver.com/tyson-fury-...ern-europeans/

The western controlled boxing establishment (a truth revealed by Fury years ago) favors Americans Mexicans and Brits, they promote them more favorably then Eastern Euros - example: Klitschkos were just "the best of a weak era" blah blah. Usyk will not get favorable excessive worship coverage, he will get the bare minimum. Then he will retire and barely be mentioned. His reign will be labeled as a very good fighter who dominated "a weak era." But if Usyk was born in Bronx or Compton, everybody knows he would be celebrated as the goat. Equality in boxing does not exist. Like pro wrestling, some hwt champions are installed for business reasons. I have obtained inside info that BOTH Clay Liston fights were rigged. Usyk busted the door down and took the throne which was supposed to be for Fury, AJ or Wilder. Just like Lennox Lewis reign was not supposed to happen, Bowe, Holy, Tyson were supposed to rule the roost. The Klitschkos also flipped the script. You are too much into conspiracies. Usyk isn’t getting the same pub as if he were from those countries. That I agree with.

Ok now we’re getting close to the issue. Usyk’s lack of name recognition bothers you as it should. That is a function imo of the current state of the world and of the sport. So if your point is the culture war politics in America is limiting the exposure American journalists are giving to Usyk because he is an Eastern European- ok I agree with you. He hasn’t been celebrated as a lot of previous hwt champs have, American or not. I think other than the cash cows since Ali- Leonard, ODH, Tyson and Floyd- and a few others - Manny, Tito, Holyfield, Lennox, Roy- this is the case. Yeah they made a movie about ODH but they’ve made more about Tyson. I still think it’s hard to make a resume case for Usyk over Ali. I think if you split your issue into 2 separate issues (I see them that way), more people would agree and understand. The western controlled boxing establishment (a truth revealed by Fury years ago) favors Americans Mexicans and Brits, they promote them more favorably then Eastern Euros - example: Klitschkos were just "the best of a weak era" blah blah. Usyk will not get favorable excessive worship coverage, he will get the bare minimum. Then he will retire and barely be mentioned. His reign will be labeled as a very good fighter who dominated "a weak era." But if Usyk was born in Bronx or Compton, everybody knows he would be celebrated as the goat. Equality in boxing does not exist. Like pro wrestling, some hwt champions are installed for business reasons. I have obtained inside info that BOTH Clay Liston fights were rigged. Usyk busted the door down and took the throne which was supposed to be for Fury, AJ or Wilder. Just like Lennox Lewis reign was not supposed to happen, Bowe, Holy, Tyson were supposed to rule the roost. The Klitschkos also flipped the script.

Ali's career was broadcast live on network TV and since the day he hung up the gloves, his illustrious career has been hailed and celebrated and worshiped non stop for going on half a century. And he deserves every bit of credit, he's the most beloved champion in sports history from any sport. Usyk's career so far is page ten news, about a three paragraph story next to the obits. No comparison in media exposure and coverage. Ali gets all the hype and buzz. Ask ten people on the street who Usyk is and 9 won't know. Ok now we’re getting close to the issue. Usyk’s lack of name recognition bothers you as it should. That is a function imo of the current state of the world and of the sport. So if your point is the culture war politics in America is limiting the exposure American journalists are giving to Usyk because he is an Eastern European- ok I agree with you. He hasn’t been celebrated as a lot of previous hwt champs have, American or not. I think other than the cash cows since Ali- Leonard, ODH, Tyson and Floyd- and a few others - Manny, Tito, Holyfield, Lennox, Roy- this is the case. Yeah they made a movie about ODH but they’ve made more about Tyson. I still think it’s hard to make a resume case for Usyk over Ali. I think if you split your issue into 2 separate issues (I see them that way), more people would agree and understand.

Respectfully, Usyk’s career is great and unforgettable. Ali’s is both plus legendary. The one thing I have noticed is how ignorant people are when it comes to Usyk’s run which is really amazing. Maybe that is the issue here. Ali’s hwt run was in regular TV for all to see at a time when being the hwt champ was being the baddest man on the planet. Usyk’s run had the cruisers no one knows about and his hwt run is during the time when few people see it on DAZN and the baddest man on the planet is from MMA. Ali's career was broadcast live on network TV and since the day he hung up the gloves, his illustrious career has been hailed and celebrated and worshiped non stop for going on half a century. And he deserves every bit of credit, he's the most beloved champion in sports history from any sport. Usyk's career so far is page ten news, about a three paragraph story next to the obits. No comparison in media exposure and coverage. Ali gets all the hype and buzz. Ask ten people on the street who Usyk is and 9 won't know.

A few years ago, this forum was filled with Fury fans proclaiming him to be greater than Ali... LOL! After Usyk exposed Fury, now the same lot are proclaiming Usyk to be greater than Ali... Recency bias strikes again! A true testament to a fighter's greatness is when people are still calling him the GOAT many years and decades later.

Fan loyalty is real. Our favorite fighters are like distant family, we think about them and adore them more than some of our own family members. So some super loyal fans will defend their fighter's honor and legacy to no limits. Ali is such a figure and maybe the most fiercely protected of all. Ali was great. Usyk was great. They both had unforgettable careers. One of them did it just a little better. Someday someone may come along and be inspired to be even better than Usyk. Hard to imagine but it's possible. After Ali it was hard to imagine anyone doing it better. Respectfully, Usyk’s career is great and unforgettable. Ali’s is both plus legendary. The one thing I have noticed is how ignorant people are when it comes to Usyk’s run which is really amazing. Maybe that is the issue here. Ali’s hwt run was in regular TV for all to see at a time when being the hwt champ was being the baddest man on the planet. Usyk’s run had the cruisers no one knows about and his hwt run is during the time when few people see it on DAZN and the baddest man on the planet is from MMA.

It's "illegal" because it's stxpid to compare beating 3 crashouts like Fury, Joshua, & Dubois, who've all been embarrassed by other people before they fought Usyk to George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston, & Ken Norton Sr. EXACTLY...Ali beat multiple HoF'ers (handing several of them their first ever loss) whereas in reality only Fury is likely to be inducted into the HoF. Therefore, Ali is definitely the superior Heavyweight. However, when you consider his ENTIRE body of work i.e. amateur career, undefeated, undisputed Cruiserweight champion, undisputed Heavyweight champion (twice) etc, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that Usyk is an EQUIVALENT talent to Ali in terms of boxing ability.

​ After I first came online in 2006, as a keen boxing fan, I started trawling for boxing content, and became borderline obsessed with Ali, both as a fighter and as a global cultural/political figure. As a result, I can well understand why black people all over the world, and also anti-establishment type white Americans, loved the guy so much. Imo, this ties in with a general tendency which pervades the way fans think about boxing, especially HW boxing. I'm talking about a tendency to glorify and romanticize great fighters from the past. The exact opposite of recency bias. I think the reason for this is that great fighters stir up great emotions in fans. They mean something to us, something which transcends mere sporting competition, and we don't want them to fade into the darkness when their careers end. So who is better, Ali or Usyk? Head to head, I wouldn't pick any HW in history to beat either of them, so I'm on the fence there. But Ali had 61 fights, with 56 wins. And Usyk, even including his cruiserweight fights, has only had 24. So Ali obviously has the better resume. Fan loyalty is real. Our favorite fighters are like distant family, we think about them and adore them more than some of our own family members. So some super loyal fans will defend their fighter's honor and legacy to no limits. Ali is such a figure and maybe the most fiercely protected of all. Ali was great. Usyk was great. They both had unforgettable careers. One of them did it just a little better. Someday someone may come along and be inspired to be even better than Usyk. Hard to imagine but it's possible. After Ali it was hard to imagine anyone doing it better.

Usyk never tested positive for steroids like Ali The Ali we're talking about here never tested positive for any PEDs. You are maybe getting him confused with a British flyweight of the same name?

I think the issue is you pretending your reason for saying Usyk is better is boxing resume related when it is clearly related to other things not boxing. Usyk is no doubt an ATG. IMO the best boxer in the world right now. Does his hwt resume match Ali’s? Imo no. That would be hard because Ali fought in an era with a lot of hwt talent. Try making it just about boxing instead of your racial conspiracies. ​ Can you prove there was more "talent" back then? No you can't. Frazier was a one dimensional small guy. Foreman was an arm puncher with little technical skills. Norton was a limited brawler. Ron Lyle was a brawler. Where is all this "talent" you speak of? Yes the perception is Ali's era was the greatest but the reality is probably the Ali era is the most popular and most celebrated. And every era post Ali is automatically deemed weaker which is a myth. All eras are tough. I think there is a racial and political factor involved in marginalizing Usyk. If Usyk was black from Brooklyn, I think the media would be much more favorable for him. And he would have a ton more. Movies and books would be written about Usyk. After I first came online in 2006, as a keen boxing fan, I started trawling for boxing content, and became borderline obsessed with Ali, both as a fighter and as a global cultural/political figure. As a result, I can well understand why black people all over the world, and also anti-establishment type white Americans, loved the guy so much. Imo, this ties in with a general tendency which pervades the way fans think about boxing, especially HW boxing. I'm talking about a tendency to glorify and romanticize great fighters from the past. The exact opposite of recency bias. I think the reason for this is that great fighters stir up great emotions in fans. They mean something to us, something which transcends mere sporting competition, and we don't want them to fade into the darkness when their careers end. So who is better, Ali or Usyk? Head to head, I wouldn't pick any HW in history to beat either of them, so I'm on the fence there. But Ali had 61 fights, with 56 wins. And Usyk, even including his cruiserweight fights, has only had 24. So Ali obviously has the better resume.

You’re wrong. Had you been reading other threads you’d know why he made this one. He has been getting killed for his opinion by dozens of other posters. The TS asks why is it illegal. My response was because you’re not making a resume based argument. Something the TS acknowledges when he responds back. He of course knows I am a Usyk fan because he has seen me in other threads. So we debate it rationally and cordially. I didn’t tell him otherwise. I asked him to make a boxing case for that opinion. I told him I disagreed and why. If he is fine with our discussion, go away. My Usyk is the goat concept is not getting killed anywhere. The support is about 50-50. Which is pretty good for such a controversial and innovative idea. Most boxing fans have been conditioned to have to automatically believe Ali is the greatest forever no matter what, Free thinkers see clearly Usyk has achieved a far more impressive career than Ali in terms of perfect results, perfect record, and self preservation. Anyone reading this would rather end up like Usyk than in Ali's health, forgive me for saying that but this is a serious debate and that factor can't be ignored. I think in short time Usyk will be considered as the goat. And Ali was a contributing factor and inspiration to create this perfect fighting machine Usyk.

I was just responding to your point. Losses definitely matter so if Usyk retires undefeated, I think we can revisit this. I do agree I doubt he is forced to hang on like Ali, Louis and so many other American boxers. I don’t think they overshadow his greatness. The most talked about Ali fights are Frazier 1 and 3 and Foreman. They resonate much more than those losses. Norman Mailer said we have to judge a man at his best for that is what he was intended to be. Yes we all remember the magic of Ali at his best. But we also remember him at his worst at the end unfortunately. Usyk never had a bad moment or failure or crash at the end. He is too good to let that happen, it would appear right now. We are comparing Ali and Usyk and the final chapters are an important part of the comparison. Both awesomely great in their own ways but one has clearly engineered the better overall career.

- - I looked up to Ali as a sorta big brother getting to do what he wanted to do, but I never saw him as better than Louis and Dempsey or even Big George. Usyk representing 30 yrs of Ukrainian Domination of The Flagship division is unprecedented in any division.

Good points. It's not about who is winning the race at the quarter pole, what matter is the finish line. In the end Ali was chewed up and spit out by the sport. He was a broken fighter at the end. Usyk at 38 actually may be at his best and still improving which is astounding - one punch knockouts in his last two fights, though the pundits said he had no punch. The pundits don't understand Usyk just like mere mortals can't understand an immortal. What speaks for Ali's career is he was very good at a young age and did not have the infrastructure that a Tyson had with Cus Damato system, or a Usyk with the Soviet boxing system but just did it mostly on raw talent.

You can't handpick segments of a career. Wladimir was perfect for about ten years. Lennox was perfect except for two catastrophic errors. Joe Louis was perfect for almost 20 defenses. Tyson Fury was perfect for most of his career. Ali was sensational and spectacular but the magic carpet ended when Eddie Futch figured him out twice. Nobody has figured out Usyk. I think the end of the career is most important and most memorable. We remembers Ali's genius but the lasting memory, hate to say it, are those losses to Holmes and Berbick. They should not but they do overshadow the genius. Usyk, it appears, is going to exit the sport as a winner and as champion in perfect health. We all wish Ali could have ended his career differently. But Ali was not great enough to finish his career the way he would have liked to. I was just responding to your point. Losses definitely matter so if Usyk retires undefeated, I think we can revisit this. I do agree I doubt he is forced to hang on like Ali, Louis and so many other American boxers. I don’t think they overshadow his greatness. The most talked about Ali fights are Frazier 1 and 3 and Foreman. They resonate much more than those losses.

I think they can both sit in the same space with your own opinions letting you believe whose better than who without having to convince the other, otherwise. You clearly believe Usyk is the GOAT. That's fine for your opinion. There are others that will say Ali. That's fine. I don't think you're going to convince anyone else otherwise. Someone from Ali's era will believe it's always Ali. Someone from your time who probably only watched Usyk will believe it's Usyk (I wasn't around for Ali either). The UK guy, Johnny Nelson whose high on Usyk said Ali is still the GOAT overall because he was around for Ali and knows what it was back then. So he's able to compare Ali and Usyk unlike us. Watch this video, Nelson breaks it down pretty good to understand it better. Again, he's lived the Ali era, so he can give his insights and of course he's living in the Usyk era, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwm5...kySportsBoxing

Ok. The flaw with your argument is Ali was perfect at HWT longer than Usyk . Ali was 31-0 at hwt with 11 title defenses compared to Usyk being 8-0 with 5 title defenses. Usyk isn’t American so he likely wouldn’t be able to express himself freely like Ali did. That isn’t a negative for Ali. You knew Ali’s values and principles because he answered questions directly. Usyk isn’t asked these because as we both said he isn’t on Ali’s level out of the ring. The perfection argument only makes Ali’s case stronger. Usyk is 25-0. Ali was 31-0. Usyk hasn’t been perfect through as many fights as Ali was. They both have 11 world title defenses. How has Usyk achieved the impossible when he hasn’t reached the perfection level of Ali, who went perfect longer? You can't handpick segments of a career. Wladimir was perfect for about ten years. Lennox was perfect except for two catastrophic errors. Joe Louis was perfect for almost 20 defenses. Tyson Fury was perfect for most of his career. Ali was sensational and spectacular but the magic carpet ended when Eddie Futch figured him out twice. Nobody has figured out Usyk. I think the end of the career is most important and most memorable. We remembers Ali's genius but the lasting memory, hate to say it, are those losses to Holmes and Berbick. They should not but they do overshadow the genius. Usyk, it appears, is going to exit the sport as a winner and as champion in perfect health. We all wish Ali could have ended his career differently. But Ali was not great enough to finish his career the way he would have liked to.