Who is greater? Joseph Parker or Luis Ortiz

Here's a thought, why don't you email His Excellency and tell him that, now he's bought Ring magazine, he should get them to stop ranking fighters based on wins and start ranking them by losses and triangle theories instead? I don't care how someone ranks fighters as long as they disclose the criteria. But when we're talking about the level of ability objectively losses count. It is not necessarily triangle theory to gauge the relative merits of a performance based on a common opponent. It is when any of these measures becomes absolute and subjective that they become problematic. Using them all together to get a picture? Not really a problem. One can also watch a fighter and know what they're looking at. Like you know a real boxing fan? Ortez may have been 72 when he fought Wilder fact is he didn't look like an old shot fighter. People make assumptions... If you look at Parker and you see his development he has gotten better The economized is just moving more etc but he's just coming into that point.

unfortunately like a good deal of Cuban fighters we never got to see a prime Ortiz... ....1932....

Why don't you try forgetting about race and ethnicity and just become a straight up boxing fan? That way, you can sit back and enjoy all these great fights that are being made, without having to worry about whether other men can validate your racial machismo for you, or whatever the fuck it is you're talking about there. Why don't you do you in wherever the fück of an ignorant shïthole you are, and I'll do me here in Pasifika ? Validate that for me!

If, by some glitch in the Matrix, Parker loses, I'll bake a crow pie, eat it with taro and palusami then believe that Opetaia, Huni or Teremoana Jr will accrue the Mana of our fighting peoples. Why don't you try forgetting about race and ethnicity and just become a straight up boxing fan? That way, you can sit back and enjoy all these great fights that are being made, without having to worry about whether other men can validate your racial machismo for you, or whatever the fuck it is you're talking about there.

If, by some glitch in the Matrix, Parker loses, I'll bake a crow pie, eat it with taro and palusami then believe that Opetaia, Huni or Teremoana Jr will accrue the Mana of our fighting peoples. Parker can then retire and live the life he's earnt and deserved with his 5 kids in Samoa or Aotearoa/New Zealand. Joshua beating Bakole in Africa would raise AJ's Mana to levels beyond his current lowly status no end. The proof of the pudding is always in the tasting and sadly AJ's pudding has tasted mostly of Duck. If there's one thing most can agree on is that Ortiz was too much, too little, too late and recklessly mismanged. I hope he made enough to support his family into a prosperous future. https://sports.yahoo.com/luis-ortiz-shares-emotional-tale-defecting-u-s-help-daughter-rare-skin-condition-160057828.html

No... You have to consider both because there is something to be said to handling competition flawlessly. A fighters BEST win means very little when the competition reflects the mean and not a major jump in the level of fighter beat. Zhang is a big slow fighter who throws one punch a round... And Ortiz was competative with Ruiz, losing a decision. And Wilder was shot... Facts. Now if Parker had beat Bakole for example, different story entirely. I leave the book open on Parker, lets see now that he has jelled if he can make the jump and beat someone who is actually a level up from the general level of competition. If he can I would have no problem saying he had a better career than Ortiz. Keeping in mind that Ortiz's prime was spent in Cuba, like most of the excellent Cuban fighters that come over here, are competative, excellent, even if not great, and mocked by idiots like you and Daggum because they happen to have passed their physical prime. "Old Ortiz" dominated the mean in the heavyweight division until he faced one of the hardest punching heavyweights, while that heavyweight was still able to win... Even in that effort "Old Ortiz" fought an excellent fight and was caught. "Old Ortiz" beat Charles Martin when Martin was being touted as a formidable heavyweight... Better win than Jennings? Perhaps. But regardless, to say parker has done more, not considering his losses, and touting Zhang as formidable, compared to other flawed heavyweights of this generation is what casuals do! Here's a thought, why don't you email His Excellency and tell him that, now he's bought Ring magazine, he should get them to stop ranking fighters based on wins and start ranking them by losses and triangle theories instead?

Presenting opinions, speculations and counterfactuals as fact doesnt make them the truth. Facts require evidence. Your opinions lack evidence. Admittedly so do mine. We can agree to disagree. I dont know why Hearn signed Ortiz as his first international to the Matchroom stable or why Ortiz left but Hearn has a partisan UK first outlook and that was to make AJ 'The Guy' which he did by clever matchmaking that involved a whole lotta ducking, lowballing, rematching and in Parker's case jobbing via dubious reffing. Going from memory and without checking dates... Joshua could have fought Hrgovic instead of Wallin, Joyce instead of Ngannou, Wilder instead of Ruiz/Miller, Ortiz instead of Whyte 2, Bakole NOW. AJ fans believe he coulda, shoulda and woulda been grand unified, undisputed, undefeated, but history will paint a picture of a guy who for whatever reason never faced the elites of his era. And when he did in Usyk, lost twice and melted down in an embarrassing display of petulant unsportsmanship. Thats not even counting the cherry pick gone wrong with Ruiz that saw him quit in his corner. Then, when presented with the opportunity to challenge for a strap again, Joshua got splattered by a simple lad, he'd aggravated and tried to intimidate in a piss poor display of aggression over executing a boxing gameplan. When Parker beats Dubois and challenges Usyk it'll make the Legend of Princess Joshy even more mythical, but i doubt itll allay the fantasies projected by his fans. To each their own and as for Turki n Fisheyes lining up Itauma...lol. Moses has been shown the promised land but i reckon he'll probably end up spending a life in the desert instead. Id like to see him go through Wardley, Huni, Teremoana Jr or see if Jalolov is legit or even clearing out the dead weight of the past era in Ruiz, Hrgovic or Kabayel/Zhang even . Everything I said there is verifiable fact. Ortiz was AJ's mandatory challenger. If he hadn't signed to fight Wilder and got popped for PEDs it would have been him fighting AJ as the WBA mandadory challenger, not Povetkin. AJ's partisan fan base wouldn't have come into it. And as for your .. AJ could have fought B instead of A, could have fought C, D and E instead of X, Y and Z nonsense, you can play that silly game with anybody .... Parker could have fought Wilder instead of Alex Leapai. He could have Fury instead of Junior Fa, or Usyk instead of Jack Massey, blah, blah, blah ... Why did Parker fight cans like that instead of world champions?

Presenting opinions, speculations and counterfactuals as fact doesnt make them the truth. Facts require evidence. Your opinions lack evidence. Admittedly so do mine. We can agree to disagree. I dont know why Hearn signed Ortiz as his first international to the Matchroom stable or why Ortiz left but Hearn has a partisan UK first outlook and that was to make AJ 'The Guy' which he did by clever matchmaking that involved a whole lotta ducking, lowballing, rematching and in Parker's case jobbing via dubious reffing. Going from memory and without checking dates... Joshua could have fought Hrgovic instead of Wallin, Joyce instead of Ngannou, Wilder instead of Ruiz/Miller, Ortiz instead of Whyte 2, Bakole NOW. AJ fans believe he coulda, shoulda and woulda been grand unified, undisputed, undefeated, but history will paint a picture of a guy who for whatever reason never faced the elites of his era. And when he did in Usyk, lost twice and melted down in an embarrassing display of petulant unsportsmanship. Thats not even counting the cherry pick gone wrong with Ruiz that saw him quit in his corner. Then, when presented with the opportunity to challenge for a strap again, Joshua got splattered by a simple lad, he'd aggravated and tried to intimidate in a piss poor display of aggression over executing a boxing gameplan. When Parker beats Dubois and challenges Usyk it'll make the Legend of Princess Joshy even more mythical, but i doubt itll allay the fantasies projected by his fans. To each their own and as for Turki n Fisheyes lining up Itauma...lol. Moses has been shown the promised land but i reckon he'll probably end up spending a life in the desert instead. Id like to see him go through Wardley, Huni, Teremoana Jr or see if Jalolov is legit or even clearing out the dead weight of the past era in Ruiz, Hrgovic or Kabayel/Zhang even . AJ Stans will do anything to avoid the undeniable fact that AJ, like Parker (up until this point) and virtually any other heavyweight have all fought a mean, a sampling, of the general heavyweight landscape, or... have not been able to beat an elite heavyweight. I would even go so far as to call a prospect like Bakole a step up into elite territory. AJ could not beat Dubois... Parker is getting ready to challenge... Lets see what happens. Kafkod says "Losses do not count" so if Parker losses to Dubois, to Bakole, even to AJ... would that not effect his standing compared to Ortiz, or any other fighter just retired? Claiming Parker is better because he beat Zhang, a big slow heavyweight that throws two punches a round, and a shot Wilder is what casuals do... then claiming that Ortiz, or any other fighter "ducked." Unbelievable lol.

The only sensible way to rate fighters is to look at who they beat, not who they lost to. Ortiz's best win was Jennings, back in 2015. Even if you say that Wilder was shot when Parker beat him, that still leaves Ruiz Jr and Zhang, who are better and more recent wins than Jennings. No... You have to consider both because there is something to be said to handling competition flawlessly. A fighters BEST win means very little when the competition reflects the mean and not a major jump in the level of fighter beat. Zhang is a big slow fighter who throws one punch a round... And Ortiz was competative with Ruiz, losing a decision. And Wilder was shot... Facts. Now if Parker had beat Bakole for example, different story entirely. I leave the book open on Parker, lets see now that he has jelled if he can make the jump and beat someone who is actually a level up from the general level of competition. If he can I would have no problem saying he had a better career than Ortiz. Keeping in mind that Ortiz's prime was spent in Cuba, like most of the excellent Cuban fighters that come over here, are competative, excellent, even if not great, and mocked by idiots like you and Daggum because they happen to have passed their physical prime. "Old Ortiz" dominated the mean in the heavyweight division until he faced one of the hardest punching heavyweights, while that heavyweight was still able to win... Even in that effort "Old Ortiz" fought an excellent fight and was caught. "Old Ortiz" beat Charles Martin when Martin was being touted as a formidable heavyweight... Better win than Jennings? Perhaps. But regardless, to say parker has done more, not considering his losses, and touting Zhang as formidable, compared to other flawed heavyweights of this generation is what casuals do!

Only opinion, but that opinion doesn't fit the facts. First, if Ortiz hadn't signed to fight Wilder then got popped for PEDs, AJ would have had no choice about fighting him. WBA mando, remember. And if Hearn didn't want that fight to happen, why would he sign Ortiz to Matchroom, then give him an easy fight against a fan favourite, in Dave Allen, on the undercard of AJ vs Molina? It's obvious that Eddie's plan was to introduce Ortiz to the UK fans, build interest in the WBA mandated fight between Ortiz and AJ, then go into that fight as the promoter of both guys. Second, if Hearn didn't want AJ to fight prime Wilder, why did he make 2 career high offers to Wilder, then give the green light to AJ vs Wilder, if Deontay accepted the massive offer he got for the fight from DAZN? Bakole wasn't a top contender during AJ's title reign. And as for Joyce and Hrgovic .. just when was AJ supposed to fight them, with all his mandatory obligations? If he hadn't lost to Ruiz, I'm sure they would have got their shots eventually, but he couldn't fight everybody at the same time. Btw, I just listened to Frank Warren and Turki on TalkSport, talking about upcoming plans for the HW division next year. They wouldn't be specific, but they were both talking about what might happen after Dubois fights Usyk to re-unify the belts. It sounds like the plan is for the winner to fight Moses Itauma next, and quickly enough for Moses to have a chance at becoming the youngest ever HW champ. What struck me was that one name was conspicuously missing from that conversation - Joseph Parker. Jeez, talk about counting your chickens before the eggs have hatched... will these guys never learn not to do that with HWs? Presenting opinions, speculations and counterfactuals as fact doesnt make them the truth. Facts require evidence. Your opinions lack evidence. Admittedly so do mine. We can agree to disagree. I dont know why Hearn signed Ortiz as his first international to the Matchroom stable or why Ortiz left but Hearn has a partisan UK first outlook and that was to make AJ 'The Guy' which he did by clever matchmaking that involved a whole lotta ducking, lowballing, rematching and in Parker's case jobbing via dubious reffing. Going from memory and without checking dates... Joshua could have fought Hrgovic instead of Wallin, Joyce instead of Ngannou, Wilder instead of Ruiz/Miller, Ortiz instead of Whyte 2, Bakole NOW. AJ fans believe he coulda, shoulda and woulda been grand unified, undisputed, undefeated, but history will paint a picture of a guy who for whatever reason never faced the elites of his era. And when he did in Usyk, lost twice and melted down in an embarrassing display of petulant unsportsmanship. Thats not even counting the cherry pick gone wrong with Ruiz that saw him quit in his corner. Then, when presented with the opportunity to challenge for a strap again, Joshua got splattered by a simple lad, he'd aggravated and tried to intimidate in a piss poor display of aggression over executing a boxing gameplan. When Parker beats Dubois and challenges Usyk it'll make the Legend of Princess Joshy even more mythical, but i doubt itll allay the fantasies projected by his fans. To each their own and as for Turki n Fisheyes lining up Itauma...lol. Moses has been shown the promised land but i reckon he'll probably end up spending a life in the desert instead. Id like to see him go through Wardley, Huni, Teremoana Jr or see if Jalolov is legit or even clearing out the dead weight of the past era in Ruiz, Hrgovic or Kabayel/Zhang even .

I explained very clearly why I voted for Ortiz... And I also presented a caveat. Your idea of "better wins" is a falsehood based on subjective rankings. You also do not talk about losses. I don't prop up any fighter, I look and evaluate based on technical skills, competition, and performance... I do not even always consider decisions... You? You look at politically motivated rankings, and go into a turd bowl telling people "this turd is better than that one." FACT, the heavyweight division is and has been weak since Lewis... Weaker today than even when the Klits were champions. The difference between Chisora and Bermaine Stiverne (for example) is negligible! The only sensible way to rate fighters is to look at who they beat, not who they lost to. Ortiz's best win was Jennings, back in 2015. Even if you say that Wilder was shot when Parker beat him, that still leaves Ruiz Jr and Zhang, who are better and more recent wins than Jennings.

Obviously Parkers resume is far superior. Ortiz never did much. BUT, I do think the Ortiz of like 10 years ago would have given any version of Parker a tough fight. See that is more like it! Let's say we take today's parker, considered his best... squarely between some twilight of youth and the wisdom to put it all together, versus a similar version of Ortiz... People can agree to disagree but the fact is anyone with sense would accept this is a close fight and has two relatively equally skilled fighters. I happen to believe Ortiz would win, but I can see Parker winning as well. Daggum takes rankings, stupid distinctions about the general level of opposition faced by both men, etc to distort the relative skill of both fighters. That is my bone to pick with him.

When was "prime ortiz"? Also it was ortiz that turned down a career high payday and a shot at the title https://www.boxingscene.com/luis-ortiz-turned-down-5m-asked-10m-fight-joshua-61--138307 unfortunately like a good deal of Cuban fighters we never got to see a prime Ortiz...

In reality Ortiz should've won the 1st Wilder fight when the ref and docs and their mothers stepped in between rounds and gave Wilder 3 hours to clear his head. That was a robbery. Regardless... if we look at Joyce and Ortiz: Joyce had a gimmick. It took a while, given the general level of comp for fighters to figure out Joyce (and Kolnawski) for that matter... Ortiz had footwork, a jab and power. As you suggest he fought well against Wilder.

you should rename yourself billeau the post-modernist. what does being greater mean as a boxer? deep deep stuff. who has the better accomplishments in boxing. who beat the better opponents. you seem to think being greater is making up excuses as to why ortiz didnt accomplish as much as parker. im just looking at what they actually accomplished. you know fanboy stuff! you also are really bad at analogizing things. chocolate or vanilla? uh no not like that at all in fact. one guy has a long list of accomplishments and a deep resume, other guy has a slim resume and lost to guys the other guy beat. Listen idiot... If you tell me Jimmy Young beat better fighters than Vlad Klitsko it means a lot to me... It happens to be true and can be shown any number of ways... But when you tell me the generic aspirin is not the same as Bayer aspirin? I am going to call you on it. Your means of distinguishing levels to the game is wrong. It simply uses incorrect measures that lack empirical evidence of being truth. Rankings are subjective. They do not tell us if Chisora is better than Stirvene. And just beating other fighters means nothing if the losses are not considered... carefully... Levels to the game! When Joyce started losing? It was because in a weak era his strategy took a while to unpack. He was never really that good. One can see this observing his technical means and how easy it was to overcome... Ortiz fought well, showed skills, and got old after the Wilder fights. It can be shown.

but parker has already beat out ortiz, he doenst have to do anything and is still way better than him. ortiz was thought highly of because of his hype, parker because of his resume. problem is ortiz didnt capitalize on that hype and his resume is mid at best. parkers resume is very good once again there you go talking about losses while ignoring quality wins. who has the better wins? parker. therefore he is better. makes sense to everyone else but you. ortiz has never faltered...oh wait he was ko'd twice by wilder who parker easily beat. he lost to ruiz who parker beat. parker even beat zhang who killed wilder and joyce who beat parker. that should tell you hes a guy that has fought almost everyone and done quiet well, ortiz on the other hand is a guy who hasnt fought that many quality fighters and hasnt done too well yet you still keep giving him special fantasy powers. Because you do not count losses ful! What about Joyce? What about Joyce before he started losing fights? Big difference right? ful... Ortiz did not falter until AFTER the Wilder fights... He beat all the opponents faced out of a pool of opponents who constituted the same skill level as those men fought by other heavyweights contemporary... Facts.

if parker loses his next fight his resume will still be 10 times better than ruiz's so whats your point? you keep talking about losses, what about wins? parker has way better wins than ortiz. you still havent explained why you voted for ortiz? from what im gathering, its because you desperately want to prop up wilder and his slim resume, but just look at their resumes? not even close right? im seeing how far fandom can go...and pretty far apparently. and no wilder being shot was not a reality, thats you trying to revise history. he just ko'd helenius in 1 round, the same type of opponent he had been fighting his entire career(cept ortiz) but hes suddenly shot when he fights someone prime? ridiculous. wilder was a 6 to 1 favorite over parker. I explained very clearly why I voted for Ortiz... And I also presented a caveat. Your idea of "better wins" is a falsehood based on subjective rankings. You also do not talk about losses. I don't prop up any fighter, I look and evaluate based on technical skills, competition, and performance... I do not even always consider decisions... You? You look at politically motivated rankings, and go into a turd bowl telling people "this turd is better than that one." FACT, the heavyweight division is and has been weak since Lewis... Weaker today than even when the Klits were champions. The difference between Chisora and Bermaine Stiverne (for example) is negligible!

My bad. You are absolutely correct. I'm just running shït off the top of my dome from memory and getting my ABC's mixed up with my XYZ's. What remains is pure opinion. One of them being, Hearn had no intention of ever matching Joshua with Prime Ortiz. Same goes for Prime Wilder, Prime Joyce, Prime Hrgoviv and now Prime Bakole. Team Joshy will drop names and pretend they want the smoke but really, it's all mirrors. Only opinion, but that opinion doesn't fit the facts. First, if Ortiz hadn't signed to fight Wilder then got popped for PEDs, AJ would have had no choice about fighting him. WBA mando, remember. And if Hearn didn't want that fight to happen, why would he sign Ortiz to Matchroom, then give him an easy fight against a fan favourite, in Dave Allen, on the undercard of AJ vs Molina? It's obvious that Eddie's plan was to introduce Ortiz to the UK fans, build interest in the WBA mandated fight between Ortiz and AJ, then go into that fight as the promoter of both guys. Second, if Hearn didn't want AJ to fight prime Wilder, why did he make 2 career high offers to Wilder, then give the green light to AJ vs Wilder, if Deontay accepted the massive offer he got for the fight from DAZN? Bakole wasn't a top contender during AJ's title reign. And as for Joyce and Hrgovic .. just when was AJ supposed to fight them, with all his mandatory obligations? If he hadn't lost to Ruiz, I'm sure they would have got their shots eventually, but he couldn't fight everybody at the same time. Btw, I just listened to Frank Warren and Turki on TalkSport, talking about upcoming plans for the HW division next year. They wouldn't be specific, but they were both talking about what might happen after Dubois fights Usyk to re-unify the belts. It sounds like the plan is for the winner to fight Moses Itauma next, and quickly enough for Moses to have a chance at becoming the youngest ever HW champ. What struck me was that one name was conspicuously missing from that conversation - Joseph Parker. Jeez, talk about counting your chickens before the eggs have hatched... will these guys never learn not to do that with HWs?

​ WRONG. Ortiz was mandatory for the WBA title, not the IBF. My bad. You are absolutely correct. I'm just running shït off the top of my dome from memory and getting my ABC's mixed up with my XYZ's. What remains is pure opinion. One of them being, Hearn had no intention of ever matching Joshua with Prime Ortiz. Same goes for Prime Wilder, Prime Joyce, Prime Hrgoviv and now Prime Bakole. Team Joshy will drop names and pretend they want the smoke but really, it's all mirrors.

AJ ducked Ortiz who was IBF mandatory - after beating Klit - to fight Poohlev. ​ WRONG. Ortiz was mandatory for the WBA title, not the IBF. The WBA ordered AJ to fight Ortiz next after AJ beat Wlad, But they then agreed to postpone their mandatory to allow AJ to unify with Parker. After AJ beat Parker, all Ortiz needed to do was inform the WBA that he was ready for his shot and AJ would have had to fight him, or relinquish the WBA belt. But instead of doing that, Ortiz left Matchroom for PBC, signed to fight Wilder, then got popped for PEDs and lost his WBA mandatory position. Povetkin then won a final eliminator vs Hammer and became AJ's new WBA mando. The narrative you are pushing has no basis in fact. I presume you must have got it from reading the utter rubbish posted by PBC fans in forums like this. Ortiz was gagging to step in for Miller before Ruiz, but negotiations fell apart. Id hazard a guess its because of Hearn and AJ not wanting the dangerous southpaw Ortiz on short notice. Negotiations fell apart ... as in, Hearn offered Ortiz $7million to fight AJ, $2million more than Miller would have got, and Ortiz's manager turned it down. Come on mate, you can do better than this.