Hypothetically...If Tyson Fury

So, I suppose that your constructed opinion which is based on having seen almost all of the top heavyweights fighting, training or both live and in person (with an 'o' before the 'n'), since 1971 really just makes you old. :lol1: It doesn't necessarily make you right. Bermane Stiverne held the WBC world championship belt, so he can be classified as a former world champion. If he was merely a belt holder as you say, that just diminishes your argument and bolsters mine that he was not that special. To put Ortiz's age into perspective, He challenged Deontay for the WBC belt at an alleged age of 38. Wilder at 39 has lost 4 of his last five fights and will likely retire, or at least never challenge for a championship again. I would venture to say that given Ortiz's level of skill, a younger version of him would have beaten Wilder. Hell, he damn near KO'd him at age 38! Oh, you're counting Fury's 2 warm up fights to disclaim his nearly 3-year hiatus after beating Klitschko in 2015. OK, he took nearly 3 years off, fought two bums, and then challenged Wilder for his WBC world championship strap. During those 3 years, he ballooned to 400lbs, was on drugs and alcohol and contemplated suicide. Yet he was able to pull off a draw vs the very fit and active Deontay Wilder, who had never lost a fight and had stopped 39 of his previous 40 opponents. My argument that Fury deserves the credit for that draw stands. I'll allow that Deontay belongs on this era's list of great HWs, but second? TBF, I'd say 3rd or 4th. Despite my argument about his level of opposition, the man does have dynamite in that right hand. It's all good my friend. 3rd or 4th is OK with me.

Being the Pri ck I am....I feel obligated to challenge all of this. Principally, because it's inaccurate in my opinion; one which is constructed through having seen almost all of the top heavyweights live and in persin, fighting, training or both; dating back to 1971. Everyone indeed may "know" that "Wilder's level of competition was so-so to poor"; but only a negligible number of them know what they're talking about when it comes to scouting fighters. Stiverne (with an 'e' at the end), was never the world champion, but merely a beltholder, as many 21st century contenders were. Still, he was at the time, a highly ranked heavyweight who Wilder beat twice with ease. Ortiz was indeed highly skilled, and after a stellar amateur career, turned pro in 2010, at a later age, and shined through an undefeated career before receiving the first title shot as the number 1 contender for the WBC crown in 2018. Four years later, he was still found smashing to bits Charles Martin; the man who made Anthony Joshua a title claimant, and the only one actually holding a title when Joshua challenged for one, who had not KOd Joshua to have won their title. I'd put that 28-0-0, 2018 version of Otiz in against all but 2 or 3 others of his era, expecting him to win. And Wilder stopped him twice. Fury had certainly not been away for 2 years when he unified the Linear title with the WBC against Wilder. He was inactive 3 and a half months! Francesco Pianeta was no Jerry Quarry or Oscar Bonavena (who Ali used to prep for Frazier in 71' after a similar layoff), but he was typical of a Klitschko title challenger (which he was). The statement that "If Wilder belongs on that list at all, it sure isn't near the top" is where the wheels come off. Of course he belongs precisely where I've placed him; and while Fury-Usyk II and III (?) Can shake things up some, it's doubtful that anyone else on the list can, given that this era ends in 13 months, and both Wilder and Joshua are through. The arguments that contemporaries like Joshua, Ruiz Jr, Dubois, Parker, Whyte, Povetkin had these tremendous resumes and Wilder fought nobodies, just because in the silo they busted each other up, each suffering frequent losses in their prime; is a gross exaggeration, if not all together a myth. Factoring quality of opposition, it is clear that Wilder's body of work was not as strong as some of them, but his results and title tenure were better than any of them. It evens out the score quite a lot. Of course; I am no supreme authority on anything whatsoever. So, I suppose that your constructed opinion which is based on having seen almost all of the top heavyweights fighting, training or both live and in person (with an 'o' before the 'n'), since 1971 really just makes you old. :lol1: It doesn't necessarily make you right. Bermane Stiverne held the WBC world championship belt, so he can be classified as a former world champion. If he was merely a belt holder as you say, that just diminishes your argument and bolsters mine that he was not that special. To put Ortiz's age into perspective, He challenged Deontay for the WBC belt at an alleged age of 38. Wilder at 39 has lost 4 of his last five fights and will likely retire, or at least never challenge for a championship again. I would venture to say that given Ortiz's level of skill, a younger version of him would have beaten Wilder. Hell, he damn near KO'd him at age 38! Oh, you're counting Fury's 2 warm up fights to disclaim his nearly 3-year hiatus after beating Klitschko in 2015. OK, he took nearly 3 years off, fought two bums, and then challenged Wilder for his WBC world championship strap. During those 3 years, he ballooned to 400lbs, was on drugs and alcohol and contemplated suicide. Yet he was able to pull off a draw vs the very fit and active Deontay Wilder, who had never lost a fight and had stopped 39 of his previous 40 opponents. My argument that Fury deserves the credit for that draw stands. I'll allow that Deontay belongs on this era's list of great HWs, but second? TBF, I'd say 3rd or 4th. Despite my argument about his level of opposition, the man does have dynamite in that right hand.

To rate a fighter highly, strictly based on his KO record is erroneous. Everyone knows Wilder's level of competition was so-so to poor. Stivern was the only world champion that he beat. Ortiz, who was highly-skilled, was also past prime. In fact, at 38, he was a year older than Wilder is now. The Bronze bomber pulled off a draw against Fury in their first fight, but Tyson had been away for three years, drinking, drugging and eating himself into a stupor. That is not a testament of praise for Wilder. Once Fury was fully back in the swing, he destroyed Deontay twice, and he's never been the same. He's lost four of his last five fights. And now, Usyk has beaten Fury. If Wilder belongs on that list at all, it sure isn't near the top. Being the Pri ck I am....I feel obligated to challenge all of this. Principally, because it's inaccurate in my opinion; one which is constructed through having seen almost all of the top heavyweights live and in persin, fighting, training or both; dating back to 1971. Everyone indeed may "know" that "Wilder's level of competition was so-so to poor"; but only a negligible number of them know what they're talking about when it comes to scouting fighters. Stiverne (with an 'e' at the end), was never the world champion, but merely a beltholder, as many 21st century contenders were. Still, he was at the time, a highly ranked heavyweight who Wilder beat twice with ease. Ortiz was indeed highly skilled, and after a stellar amateur career, turned pro in 2010, at a later age, and shined through an undefeated career before receiving the first title shot as the number 1 contender for the WBC crown in 2018. Four years later, he was still found smashing to bits Charles Martin; the man who made Anthony Joshua a title claimant, and the only one actually holding a title when Joshua challenged for one, who had not KOd Joshua to have won their title. I'd put that 28-0-0, 2018 version of Otiz in against all but 2 or 3 others of his era, expecting him to win. And Wilder stopped him twice. Fury had certainly not been away for 2 years when he unified the Linear title with the WBC against Wilder. He was inactive 3 and a half months! Francesco Pianeta was no Jerry Quarry or Oscar Bonavena (who Ali used to prep for Frazier in 71' after a similar layoff), but he was typical of a Klitschko title challenger (which he was). The statement that "If Wilder belongs on that list at all, it sure isn't near the top" is where the wheels come off. Of course he belongs precisely where I've placed him; and while Fury-Usyk II and III (?) Can shake things up some, it's doubtful that anyone else on the list can, given that this era ends in 13 months, and both Wilder and Joshua are through. The arguments that contemporaries like Joshua, Ruiz Jr, Dubois, Parker, Whyte, Povetkin had these tremendous resumes and Wilder fought nobodies, just because in the silo they busted each other up, each suffering frequent losses in their prime; is a gross exaggeration, if not all together a myth. Factoring quality of opposition, it is clear that Wilder's body of work was not as strong as some of them, but his results and title tenure were better than any of them. It evens out the score quite a lot. Of course; I am no supreme authority on anything whatsoever.

I can't think of anyone who can't be made sport of, given the inperfection of each and every one of them, and the difficult job they do. But, I can easily come up with the one post Klitschko heavyweight who managed to win 10 title defenses, with all who won a title feeding on the same top 20. To rate a fighter highly, strictly based on his KO record is erroneous. Everyone knows Wilder's level of competition was so-so to poor. Stivern was the only world champion that he beat. Ortiz, who was highly-skilled, was also past prime. In fact, at 38, he was a year older than Wilder is now. The Bronze bomber pulled off a draw against Fury in their first fight, but Tyson had been away for three years, drinking, drugging and eating himself into a stupor. That is not a testament of praise for Wilder. Once Fury was fully back in the swing, he destroyed Deontay twice, and he's never been the same. He's lost four of his last five fights. And now, Usyk has beaten Fury. If Wilder belongs on that list at all, it sure isn't near the top.

- - Did you get run off the history forum? My quest to educate takes me everywhere.

He'll be declared the second-coming of Jesus Christ and the best boxer to ever grace the Earth. A brand-new Funko Pop will be made in his honour and he'll be presented in the ring with a Certificate of Achievement. Eddie Hearn brings him a homemade chocolate cake, after Fury sings a song to the crowd. Anthony Bellew shakes his hero Oleksandr Usyk's hand and says that he only lost cause he passed his prime during the ring walk, then declares to the crowd "I'm Anthony Bellew, you'll never see me again." The belts are then given to Fury, who refuses them after his ordeal with the IBF, stating that he's more than happy with his Certificate of Achievement, Anthony Joshua enters to dispose of the belts, tossing them over the top ropes and to the floor. What a night we have coming to us. Nash out - His Excellency

...Were to outbox, lean on and corner Usyk after hurting him in December; and score, say; a 7th round Knockout. Producing a truly great performance in recapturing the title. What would that do for his legacy, assuming they both retire following a one-sided fight in December. My thought, is that would seal the deal, making Fury the captain of his era: 1. Tyson Fury 2. Deontay Wilder 3. Oleksandr Usyk 4. Zhilei Zhang 5. Anthony Joshua 6. Daniel Dubois 7. Joseph Parker 8. Andy Ruiz Jr 9. Martin Bakole 10.Wladimir Klitschko And, it would enter the 6'9" behemoth further into discussions about the 10 greatest, all-time: 1. Muhammad Ali 2. Joe Louis 3. Jack Dempsey 4. George Foreman 5. Jack Johnson 5. Larry Holmes 7. Lennox Lewis 8. Sonny Liston 9. Tyson Fury 10. Rocky Marciano 11. Mike Tyson 12. Gene Tunney 13. Sam Langford 14. Harry Wills 15. Wladimir Klitschko 16. Evander Holyfield 17. James J. Jeffries 18. Ezzard Charles 19. James J. Corbett 20. Joe Jeanette​ - - Did you get run off the history forum?

If Fury beats Usyk, ranking Wilder at two is too low if anything. I mean, we all know Wilder was robbed of a KO victory against Fury in their first fight. There shouldn't have even been a second or third fight. But there was, and Fury had to cheat to "win". We know this because Deontay himself said so. Without the damage incurred from those two unnecessary bouts at the cheating hands of the Gypsy King, Wilder would almost certainly have racked up another ten world title defenses and retired undefeated at 51-0, better than even Rocky Marciano. A certified ATG. The only man to beat Bermane Stiverne twice. Need I say more? That is quite a rabbit hole you just took one down with that post! Very interesting to imagine.

If Fury beats Usyk, ranking Wilder at two is too low if anything. I mean, we all know Wilder was robbed of a KO victory against Fury in their first fight. There shouldn't have even been a second or third fight. But there was, and Fury had to cheat to "win". We know this because Deontay himself said so. Without the damage incurred from those two unnecessary bouts at the cheating hands of the Gypsy King, Wilder would almost certainly have racked up another ten world title defenses and retired undefeated at 51-0, better than even Rocky Marciano. A certified ATG. The only man to beat Bermane Stiverne twice. Need I say more? I can't think of anyone who can't be made sport of, given the inperfection of each and every one of them, and the difficult job they do. But, I can easily come up with the one post Klitschko heavyweight who managed to win 10 title defenses, with all who won a title feeding on the same top 20.

If Fury beats Usyk, ranking Wilder at two is too low if anything. I mean, we all know Wilder was robbed of a KO victory against Fury in their first fight. There shouldn't have even been a second or third fight. But there was, and Fury had to cheat to "win". We know this because Deontay himself said so. Without the damage incurred from those two unnecessary bouts at the cheating hands of the Gypsy King, Wilder would almost certainly have racked up another ten world title defenses and retired undefeated at 51-0, better than even Rocky Marciano. A certified ATG. The only man to beat Bermane Stiverne twice. Need I say more?

It'd help Furys legacy obviously but people would want a third fight to settle things. It'd be weird for them to retire at 1-1. There doesn't need to be a 3rd. Usually winner of rematch is considered better, and thought to have had bad day at office in first fight. But if Fury beats usyk, fury can be top 10.

I think it would put him in the top 20 all-time at HW. Now, he's about top 25

And if Usyk beats Fury again he'll clinch the era hands down, leaving the rest of them in the dust. Unquestionably. He’s head and shoulders above the rest atm. Fury is the only guy even within reach of him IMO.

Also, the wins over Chisora and Dubois have aged remarkably well.

Wilder was badly beaten by Fury twice himself though, so how would that hypothetical result lower Usyk beneath him? 10 defences is an impressive feat but it’s important to consider it was 10 defences of a heavyweight title not the heavyweight title which only Wladimir, Fury and Usyk have held within this era. The fact Usyk also became undisputed champion puts him leagues above Wilder IMO. And if Usyk beats Fury again he'll clinch the era hands down, leaving the rest of them in the dust.

This wasn't supposed to be a discussion of Wilders place in the pantheon; but..... It is certainly a debateable point regarding Wilder's lofty placement on the list that shows a hypothetical of Usyk getting blown out in the rematch. Usyk getting beaten badly in the scenario accounts for his dropping to number three. But....My argument in defense of Wilder always factors in things such as: Undefeated until age 34, at 42-0-1 (Matched only by Marciano and Holmes). 10 successful title defenses, the leading figure of the era. A 2008 Olympics medalist. The highest KO - to - win% of any major heavyweight beltholder in history (97.67%). Meaningful (and semi-meaningful) wins over Harrison, Liakhovich, Scott, Stiverne (2), Molina, Duhaupas, Szpilka, Arreola, Washington, Ortiz (2), Breazeale, Helenius and a draw against reigning lineal champion Fury to unify. Everything the WBC asked of him; which was his one obligation as long as he held their title. CERTAINLY, Not as good an opponent collection as several others in his era had, but he scored stunning knockouts and knockdowns over them all without a single loss during his prime. Aside from Usyk, who else has done that? The "meaningful high end wins" list is, of course, a vitally important factor when making these relative assessments, and perhaps the single most important one; but it does not stand up alone. I throw out his lukewarm nod against Parker and KO loss to Zhang as a 48 fight veteran approaching 40 having passed his prime, and look forward to what folks like Joshua, Parker and Dubois will be doing at that age. It all adds up; as do the 10 in-prime losses suffered by Joshua, Whyte and Parker. The actual body of work quotiant that seperates those among the best of the era is razor thin, and it’s perfectly all right for others to shout out for their faves. ​ Wilder was badly beaten by Fury twice himself though, so how would that hypothetical result lower Usyk beneath him? 10 defences is an impressive feat but it’s important to consider it was 10 defences of a heavyweight title not the heavyweight title which only Wladimir, Fury and Usyk have held within this era. The fact Usyk also became undisputed champion puts him leagues above Wilder IMO.

This wasn't supposed to be a discussion of Wilders place in the pantheon; but..... Wilders best win is Ortiz, then his second best is errr...Arreola? Helenius? (who Joshua also beat), Stiverne? Gerald Washington? how the **** is that enough to put him over Usyk who has beaten Fury, Dubois and Joshua x2? or even over Joshua who has beaten Wlad, Parker, Povetkin, Whyte, Pulev, Ruiz, Martin, Wallin in addition to several of Wilders better wins in Helenius, Breazele and Molina? Even Dubois, Parker and Zhang have arguably surpassed Wilders resume in terms of meaningful high end wins at this point. Wilder above Usyk is absurd. Wilder couldn’t beat Fury in 3 attempts, Usyk did it first time. Wilder held one belt, Usyk unified them all. Also has wins over AJ x2 and Dubois which is better than anything on Wilder’s resume. Not sure if you’re trolling but if that’s a serious take, then wow… It is certainly a debateable point regarding Wilder's lofty placement on the list that shows a hypothetical of Usyk getting blown out in the rematch. Usyk getting beaten badly in the scenario accounts for his dropping to number three. But....My argument in defense of Wilder always factors in things such as: Undefeated until age 34, at 42-0-1 (Matched only by Marciano and Holmes). 10 successful title defenses, the leading figure of the era. A 2008 Olympics medalist. The highest KO - to - win% of any major heavyweight beltholder in history (97.67%). Meaningful (and semi-meaningful) wins over Harrison, Liakhovich, Scott, Stiverne (2), Molina, Duhaupas, Szpilka, Arreola, Washington, Ortiz (2), Breazeale, Helenius and a draw against reigning lineal champion Fury to unify. Everything the WBC asked of him; which was his one obligation as long as he held their title. CERTAINLY, Not as good an opponent collection as several others in his era had, but he scored stunning knockouts and knockdowns over them all without a single loss during his prime. Aside from Usyk, who else has done that? The "meaningful high end wins" list is, of course, a vitally important factor when making these relative assessments, and perhaps the single most important one; but it does not stand up alone. I throw out his lukewarm nod against Parker and KO loss to Zhang as a 48 fight veteran approaching 40 having passed his prime, and look forward to what folks like Joshua, Parker and Dubois will be doing at that age. It all adds up; as do the 10 in-prime losses suffered by Joshua, Whyte and Parker. The actual body of work quotiant that seperates those among the best of the era is razor thin, and it’s perfectly all right for others to shout out for their faves. ​

If you are putting Klitschko in this era then you can't have him at 10. That's insane.

I don't. At all. It might help a bit to clarify that the list is IF Fury beats Usyk... I think some may have forgotten that fact. Either way, it is a tough sell lol. My own feelings are: Lists are hard to justify objectively and I look at the skill, justification of the list maker as existential in nature. Wilder was insanely capable of knocking out opponents and on film it shows... Usyk beat Joshua which is somewhat diminished these days lol...

Tyson Fury equals Led Zeppelin The PBC or PVC and Matchroom are like Pink Floyd and The Who hating on the good name. Facts.