The Gradual Extinction of the great American Heavyweight

A few casual sounding fans here have expressed their opinion that the heavyweights of today are richer because of the post communist infusion of eastern European fighters, now free to pursue a career in the professional ranks. But I submit that those fighters serve as a REPLACEMENT in the division, rather than an addition to it. Fact is, American citizens who want to work and are able to, have no difficulty in finding a good job that affords them a nice home, some land, college for their children, a good, sound vehicle or two, some world travel, a long and well financed retirement, and many other comforts; and every one of those jobs is easier to do than being a boxing pro. I did it, and if I can do it, anyone can. And thus, in America the sport of boxing is no longer a viable direction for young peope to pursue, and the sport is no longer filled with Americans, going back at least 40 years now. So the Heavyweight division (to keep it simple), may have gained from the republics of the defunct Soviet Union, but it has lost an even greater talent from America. To illustrate this, let's have a by-decade look at the 10 best American born big men in boxing, and you can decide for yourselves if there is a trend regarding what the U.S is contributing to the professional ranks. The 1970's 1. Muhammad Ali 2. George Foreman 3. Joe Frazier 4. Ken Norton 5. Larry Holmes 6. Jerry Quarry 7. Jimmy Ellis 8. Ron Lyle 9. Earnie Shavers 10. Jimmy Young The 1980's 1. Larry Holmes 2. Mike Tyson 3. Michael Dokes 4. Gerry Cooney 5. Tim Witherspoon 6. Mike Weaver 7. Pinklon Thomas 8. Michael Spinks 9. Bonecrusher Smith 10. Tony Tucker The 1990's 1. Evander Holyfield 2. Mike Tyson 3. Riddick Bowe 4. Tommy Morrison 5. George Foreman 6. Chris Byrd 7. Shannon Briggs 8. Michael Moorer 9. Larry Holmes 10. Oliver McCall The 2000's 1. Chris Byrd 2. Hasim Rahman 3. Tony Thompson 4. Lamon Brewster 5. Joe Mesi 6. Larry Donald 7. Calvin Brock 8. Jameel McCline 9. Lance Whitaker 10.James Toney The 2010's 1. Deontay Wilder 2. Andy Ruiz Jr 3. Jarrell Miller 4. Chris Arreola 5. Dominic Breazeale 6. Bryant Jennings 7. Gerald Washington 8. Malik Scott 9. Eric Molina 10.Travis Kauffman The 2020's 1. Deontay Wilder 2. Andy Ruiz Jr. 3. Jared Anderson 4. Jarrell Miller 5. Charles Martin 6. Richard Torrez Jr 7. Michael Hunter 8. Jermaine Franklin 9. Jonathan Guidry 10. Cassius Chaney

Comments (20)

I just watched the NFL Draft. To me those are the strongest and fastest athletes on the planet. It's an easier route to the NFL/NBA and those guys are signing $150 - $200 Million Dollar deals now. The NFL and NBA have taken the Heavyweight Champ athletes from America. No other athletes can compete with America best imo. Do you wish you were a black man? You pakis are so fucking cringe and beg black athletes cause your own people are so inferior and weak and useless

2y ago

Willow_The_Wisp

Theyre only barely beginning to acknowledge that football causes CTE. its weird they still turn a blind eye and will still send their 8 year olds out there to charge other kids head first, but those same parents wouldnt let their kids anywhere near a boxing ring. Studies conducted on High School players are pretty damming. You get your bell rung, your grades drop. The parents groups are pushing the child abuse angle. But....No feed from high schools, no college teams. No college teams, no NFL draft. When George Lundberg advocated banning pro boxing back in the 80's, he ran into adults retaining the right to choose risky occupations and hobbies. But this child abuse claim is VERY different, and VERY, VERY winnable in court. If the talent fishing net breaks, and the NFL can't get the sport into the minds of young Americans, their sustainability is at risk.

2y ago

niceyboo3

I always found this explanation to be unfounded as kids don't get into sports because they're lucrative, they get into them for fun and if they're good at it they stick with it and make money later. Who is thinking about money at 9 years old? Parents push the more lucrative sport. So it's not the 9 year old chosing. I'd rather my son hooping(basketball)

2y ago

elfag

I agree. Semantics then. Nature & Nurture, if you will. by natural fighter, I'm not envisioenvisioning a psychopath; Im thinking about a guy who does the grind, maintains the dedication; because he LOVES the rumble. Amateur wrestling is one of the top feeds into Mixed Martial Arts; but many don't want anything to do with that level of contact; and that doesn't effect their wrestling. Different strokes. Regarding getting them young: You might be aware; but there is a burgeoning movement to ban Football from high schools in the U.S. it's a slow burn at this time, but the war is coming. Massive college revenue, a very popular sport vs. Liberal parents groups who specialize in taking down giants. In another decade, the HS, college, NFL contract will be under heavy fire. Theyre only barely beginning to acknowledge that football causes CTE. its weird they still turn a blind eye and will still send their 8 year olds out there to charge other kids head first, but those same parents wouldnt let their kids anywhere near a boxing ring.

2y ago

elfag

like i said earlier looking at the list, the drop off is more recent, it wasnt as big a drop off in the 90s and 2000s as I thought, it really started in the 2010s that was a massive drop off, now the americans dont even rule the top 10. I think it corresponds with the closing of so many boxing gyms. Also if you were 20 in 2010, then you grew up in an era where there was no boxing on public TV only on HBO/showtime/ESPN. You figure the guys in the 90s they grew up seeing some boxing on free TV and with way more gyms around at the time to. who knows maybe kids now watching jake paul box might want to take it up, they got less gyms to choose from too and more popular UFC to pull them in though.

2y ago

Willow_The_Wisp

I'm not convinced that the "natural fighter" bit is that big of a deal. I've trained several people who were pretty clearly not natural fighters, who then went on to win valor medals in combat. Military is full of those sorts of people. And there are plenty of guys who are natural killers who would get absolutely wrecked in a boxing ring absent the time put in the gym to hone the craft. Remember, I'm talking about getting them young, when they first got interested in their sports. The guys who have the tenacity and determination to make it in the major pro sports would absolutely be competitive. I'll take the guys who have the ability to learn and put in the grind and be dedicated and succeed at the top tier of their chosen sports any day. I agree. Semantics then. Nature & Nurture, if you will. by natural fighter, I'm not envisioenvisioning a psychopath; Im thinking about a guy who does the grind, maintains the dedication; because he LOVES the rumble. Amateur wrestling is one of the top feeds into Mixed Martial Arts; but many don't want anything to do with that level of contact; and that doesn't effect their wrestling. Different strokes. Regarding getting them young: You might be aware; but there is a burgeoning movement to ban Football from high schools in the U.S. it's a slow burn at this time, but the war is coming. Massive college revenue, a very popular sport vs. Liberal parents groups who specialize in taking down giants. In another decade, the HS, college, NFL contract will be under heavy fire.

2y ago

Atypicalbrit

I'm not convinced that the "natural fighter" bit is that big of a deal. Let me introduce you to a guy by the name of Audley Harrison

2y ago

crimsonfalcon07

A lot of supposition built into this. Mark Gastineau was the baddest man in the NFL and took plenty of time to train boxing, but lacked the athletic properties needed to become a good fighter. To project how he might have done if he'd started training from age 12 is a standard of guesswork that is too rich for my blood. It's irrelevant anyway, to suspect that America's best heavyweights are embedded in the rosters of the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc. Those sports take a very small number off the top; a very small percent; a the performance in the ring of those who got cut and tried boxing doesn't make anyone think twice. Frankly, if I assemble a team of bikers, bouncers and badasses and you had your pick to assemble your own team from the field sports, and we could train them all in boxing for 5 years each, I'd favor my chances. I'll take a natural fighter over a hardbody who can run, jump and lift any day. No oxygen on the sidelines in this jam. I'm not convinced that the "natural fighter" bit is that big of a deal. I've trained several people who were pretty clearly not natural fighters, who then went on to win valor medals in combat. Military is full of those sorts of people. And there are plenty of guys who are natural killers who would get absolutely wrecked in a boxing ring absent the time put in the gym to hone the craft. Remember, I'm talking about getting them young, when they first got interested in their sports. The guys who have the tenacity and determination to make it in the major pro sports would absolutely be competitive. I'll take the guys who have the ability to learn and put in the grind and be dedicated and succeed at the top tier of their chosen sports any day.

2y ago

Smash

im sure it will be like waiting at your bus stop for ages and ages & then 3 come along in a row

2y ago

BreWall

I recall that it was Wilder doing everything possible to lure Ruiz into the ring. Oh okay. So it's the fighters, not the "organizations." You just confirmed the point I made. It's almost always the fighters, and not really the "uncollaborative promotions" the previous poster was suggesting.

2y ago

Willow_The_Wisp

You are saying just drop a football player into a boxing match. I'm saying if they started as kids when they started playing football, and did boxing instead, they'd be very competitive. Time in training matters more than some nonsense about being good at it naturally. Most of the aspects of any combat sport can be trained. There's very little that's not trainable, and there's guys who don't have crazy knockout power who have still been able to reach the upper echelons of the sport with dedication and skill. A lot of supposition built into this. Mark Gastineau was the baddest man in the NFL and took plenty of time to train boxing, but lacked the athletic properties needed to become a good fighter. To project how he might have done if he'd started training from age 12 is a standard of guesswork that is too rich for my blood. It's irrelevant anyway, to suspect that America's best heavyweights are embedded in the rosters of the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc. Those sports take a very small number off the top; a very small percent; a the performance in the ring of those who got cut and tried boxing doesn't make anyone think twice. Frankly, if I assemble a team of bikers, bouncers and badasses and you had your pick to assemble your own team from the field sports, and we could train them all in boxing for 5 years each, I'd favor my chances. I'll take a natural fighter over a hardbody who can run, jump and lift any day. No oxygen on the sidelines in this jam.

2y ago

Willow_The_Wisp

Not always the case. Only few can be placed in that category. How many times did Ruiz call out Wilder, even invoked "we're in the same organization," should be easy to make. Then you have the Charlo brothers who got plenty of fights to take in their own PBC backyard, yet they'd rather take long layoffs. I recall that it was Wilder doing everything possible to lure Ruiz into the ring.

2y ago

crimsonfalcon07

Negative. Wilder would knock an entire team out cold if you give him a week to do it. Those are "Mary sports" compared to boxing, and excessive weight training gives you a glass jaw. Too tight. You are saying just drop a football player into a boxing match. I'm saying if they started as kids when they started playing football, and did boxing instead, they'd be very competitive. Time in training matters more than some nonsense about being good at it naturally. Most of the aspects of any combat sport can be trained. There's very little that's not trainable, and there's guys who don't have crazy knockout power who have still been able to reach the upper echelons of the sport with dedication and skill.

2y ago

Willow_The_Wisp

Simple. Most large athletic American men will choose to pursue a more popular and lucrative sport when given the choice. If boxing were more popular than football and basketball then I bet Americans would be all over the heavyweight division. https://fightnews.com/who-says-boxing-is-dead/129354 By Karl Freitag Hardcore boxing fans tend to gnash their teeth at the recent spate of exhibitions featuring former boxing legends, MMA fighters competing in boxing matches, combination boxing/Verzuz events, and Internet “influencers” squaring off in the ring. But there is a very bright side. In the most recent Harris Poll, boxing now ranks as the fourth most-popular sport in the United States, behind only football, baseball, and basketball. And ahead of MMA. Ahead of ice hockey. Ahead of soccer. Ahead of tennis. Ahead of golf. This is rather startling considering boxing wasn’t even in the top ten previously. And perhaps even more shocking is the fact that boxing is no longer just your grandfather’s favorite sport. Young people are flocking to the sweet science, even preferring boxing to baseball!

2y ago

Willow_The_Wisp

This is silly. If those guys had put the same time into training boxing that they did into training the sports they chose, they would be good. You're pretending like there's some sort of natural talent that supersedes time in the gym. Deontay Wilder managed to become a world champion with more defenses than the rest of the current champs combined, albeit cherry picking, and he didn't even start boxing until he was 20, and he's not that good at it. Andy Ruiz had his first fight when he was 7. If you put him up against someone who's bigger, more athletic, and has more work ethic, and give them the same amount of time training boxing that they've spent training football, Andy gets smashed. Anthony Joshua is a prime example. He didn't start boxing until age 18. He was doing football and track. Even with a late start he still became one of the top heavyweight champions. But he still lost to Usyk, who started out in soccer and started boxing at 15. What if those top athletes started in boxing the whole time? Negative. Wilder would knock an entire team out cold if you give him a week to do it. Those are "Mary sports" compared to boxing, and excessive weight training gives you a glass jaw. Too tight.

2y ago

Willow_The_Wisp

2y ago

crimsonfalcon07

So what you are saying is that the standard of athlete in the NFL/NBA is so poor, that the guys playing in it are not naturally gifted in those sports, they are just big, all round athletes that could be pretty good at any sport they picked? Thats basically what that argument is saying. I disagree and I think the guys at the top end in those sports are specialists who are naturally gifted and have attributes that shine in those particular sports. I do not think you could get 10 year old LeBron James and turn him into the heavyweight champion, he's a natural at basketball, he's probably not a natural at boxing, and at heavyweight if you aren't a natural you will get chinned by a fat blob like Andy Ruiz no matter what sort of athletic shape you are in. Andy Ruiz would put LeBron in the hospital. And any nfl player as well. Get one of those 450lb ripped to shreds 100 meters in 6 seconds nfl guys and put them in the ring with Andy Ruiz and they will get sent to the shadow realm This is silly. If those guys had put the same time into training boxing that they did into training the sports they chose, they would be good. You're pretending like there's some sort of natural talent that supersedes time in the gym. Deontay Wilder managed to become a world champion with more defenses than the rest of the current champs combined, albeit cherry picking, and he didn't even start boxing until he was 20, and he's not that good at it. Andy Ruiz had his first fight when he was 7. If you put him up against someone who's bigger, more athletic, and has more work ethic, and give them the same amount of time training boxing that they've spent training football, Andy gets smashed. Anthony Joshua is a prime example. He didn't start boxing until age 18. He was doing football and track. Even with a late start he still became one of the top heavyweight champions. But he still lost to Usyk, who started out in soccer and started boxing at 15. What if those top athletes started in boxing the whole time?

2y ago

Willow_The_Wisp

Back in the day boxing was never a profession. Boxers don't wait around. They have jobs. Boxing has served as a full time profession for well over 300 years straight, and the other sports have caught up to it only recently.

2y ago

BreWall

Quite curious if having to many uncollaborative promotions like PBC, GBP and Top Rank just made it difficult for American heavyweight boxing amateurs think it is not a lucrative option. Not always the case. Only few can be placed in that category. How many times did Ruiz call out Wilder, even invoked "we're in the same organization," should be easy to make. Then you have the Charlo brothers who got plenty of fights to take in their own PBC backyard, yet they'd rather take long layoffs.

2y ago

elfag

i thought its been bad since the 90s but realize the US basically ruled the division in the 90s and even when lennox became champ in the tail end, all the rest of the top guys were still american besides like a random golota. The 2010s and 2020s its a massive drop off. the 2000s there were still mostly US heavyweights even if they werent the champs they still rounded out the top 10.

2y ago