Pick Em 2023 - PRE SEASON DISCUSSION THREAD

Okay gentlemen - really should have put this together about 2 weeks ago but I completely forgot about it until I just started thinking about this year's Masterthread and putting together the first Pick Em of the New Year (Gonna be Tank vs Garcia only on the 7th).. So apologies to all. However given that we ain't gonna be looking at fundamentally changing the Picking format (ie it's still gonna be winner / method/ detail - EARLY MID LATE / CLOSE CLEAR WIDE) and that the adjusted cutoffs for DEC picks brought in in 2022 (0-9, 10 - 18, 19+) seemed to work pretty well I reckon we're good to post the Davis vs Luis Garcia thread whilst any pre-season discussion is still ongoing. 2nd Pick Em of the year is looking like 2 or possibly 3 fights on the 21st so we got a little bit of time to finalise details before then if we need it. Originally we would have been having Ajagba vs Rivas on the 14th but with the Oscar's injury leaving us with replacement Shaw it just ain't worthwhile I think. Okay.. so where are we? We had some pretty good discussion earlier in the year with ideas ranging from changing the points balance from the current 20/10/10 (winner/method/detail) to either reward the method and detail more or less (suggesting either 10/10/10 or even I guess something like 20/5/5 which was the original system under BroBob if I recall right. Another suggestion (and this is one I'm gunning hard to implement) is to change the multiplier system so that instead of optional multipliers being playable on any fighter at any time they would in future be only playable on the betting underdog (ie fighters whose agrregate odds are +100 or greater). This is of course the system we've already been using for the x5 multiplier but I believe it would reward player discernment better to extend that system to x2s and x3s as well. In conjunction with the above I think it's probably also worthwhile to reduce the overall number of multipliers available - I think they do add to play and don't wish to get rid of them altogether, but I do think it may be an idea to reduce the overall impact they have on the game... putting a greater emphasis on good picking and a lower emphasis on gamesmanship. My suggestion would be a total of 10 multiplier for the year 6 x2s, 3 x3s and 1 x5, though of course I'm open to suggestion. Other ideas? - well, same as every damn year I'm gonna try to run up a schedule for the coming month ahead of time - ideally a week or so before the end of the precedinhg month. If previous years are anything to go by we'll fall somewhat short of that but I'll continue to try... if anyone fancies putting up their hand to be head of scheduling I'll take you up on it so fast it'll make your head spin.:lol1: Another concept is splitting the year down into a few smaller chunks... I'm thinking about maybe having quarterly rankings and winners - although the possibility of quarterly prizes would be dependent on the goodwill of the Boxing Scene management and I certainly wouldn't be holding my breath. Nice idea though and I put some thought into ways in which it could be effrectively managed. OK - Ima leave it there for now, cos I've got abunch of other stuff to do but I'd invite any Pick Em players - or prospective players - to please offer their own suggestions on how the game could be improved for 2023. You want more fights included, less fights, more equal fights even if they're lower down the rankings or top flight televsied matches only? Please make your feelings known gents.:boxing: Kind regards gents, Theo And if I could just ask one of the mods to sticky this thread for the time being it'd be much apprecaited jaded -MEGA- BostonGuy BIGPOPPAPUMP

Comments (20)

OK gents.. I really haven't had the time or energy to be pushing this thread as hard as it needed but I think there's 3 main areas we're looking at this year: Whether to reduce multipliers multipliers and having em unplayable on perceived mismatches. Whether to lean towards more balanced lower profile fights over perceived mismatches between better known / higher ranked fighters Changing the points balance to either reward mathod and detail picks more or less What I'm going to do is to put up a new thread with a multi-choice poll with 3 options on each of these areas: For the multipliers / mismatch the three options wil be: Retain current number of multipliers. Multipliers only playable on fighters at -200 or greater Reduce number of multipliers. Multipliers only playable on -200 or greater Reduce number of multipliers. Multipliers only playable on +100 or greater (ie only underdogs) For fight balance: Retain current (2022) balance Lean more towards bigger fights / higher rankings only even if mismatches Lean more towards closer odds fights even if the rankings or awareness of the fighters is lower For points balance Retain current scoring (ie 20/10/10 or Winner/method/ detail) Increase emphasis on correct method and detail, reduce emphasis on winner(eg 10/10/10) Increase emphasis on correctwinner, reduce emphasis on method and detail (eg 20/5/5 or 20/10/5) Now this will obviously only make sense if you pick no mopre than one answer in each of the three categories. What I would also encourage is for you to post in a bit more detail about your prefered options or any more specific detail you might think of. What I'm mainly looking is getting a feel for what most players would prefer to see in 2023 so I can run up the 2023 Masterthread in a coupla days.

3y ago

ElMalo

Numbers on this site have gone down massively is this the super persistent troll work? Trolls had a bit of an impact but overall the sport is just in a bad spot. I have a feeling that this is going to continue for another four years or so before all the promotional companies start to really run out of funds and are forced to work with each other. This is the worse the sport has gotten when it comes to making fights happen, only so much that they can ruin before it all collapses

3y ago

Tatabanya

have I missed this weeks pick ems? loads of good 50 50 fights this weekend.. No Pick Em this weekend, alas... :(

3y ago

mlac

have I missed this weeks pick ems? loads of good 50 50 fights this weekend..

3y ago

I_Didnt_Hear_No_Bell

It also reminds me of the mythical Iran Barkley, cuts on both eyes, muttering "I ain't got time to bleed" to his seconds just before knocking Thomas Hearns out :lol1: Welcome, then! :cool: :lol1: of course who could forget that?

3y ago

Tatabanya

Loll don't know why but that was the first thing to pop in my head for a username, an iconic moment in film for sure. It also reminds me of the mythical Iran Barkley, cuts on both eyes, muttering "I ain't got time to bleed" to his seconds just before knocking Thomas Hearns out :lol1: Welcome, then! :cool:

3y ago

I_Didnt_Hear_No_Bell

As pointed out by MulaKO above fight thread are typically posted up on the MOnday (or sometimes Tuesday) of fight week, however I will be making efforts to work up a rough schedule for the month ahead a week or so before the beginning of each month which will be posted up on the Masterthread when I get round to putting it up (probably early next week). If you want to get an idea of what's likely to be in for yourself you can go on the Boxrec schedule page and do a search refined by '4 star+' and 'Pro Boxing' and look for Male full title fights in that list. Most of the ones we pick are likely to fit those criteria. If there's an exceptional female fight on - like for undisputed - we may include it but generally we set the bar pretty high on the women's fights. Conversely if there's a particularly tasty men's match that isn't a title fight we may include it - and almost certainly will if both fighters are within the TBRB or RING top 10 for their division. And good to have you with us man, hope you enjoy it. Loving your username.. :lol1: I'll definitely be doing that to try and get an idea of what's ahead. Thanks man I'm excited to be part of it even if I do terrible, sounds like a lot of fun. Loll don't know why but that was the first thing to pop in my head for a username, an iconic moment in film for sure.

3y ago

I_Didnt_Hear_No_Bell

Usually posted the week of the fight on Monday You have the whole week to do your homework Sounds good I like that

3y ago

Citizen_Koba

How soon before the fight do you post each one? Same day of the fight? Day before? Week before? As pointed out by MulaKO above fight thread are typically posted up on the MOnday (or sometimes Tuesday) of fight week, however I will be making efforts to work up a rough schedule for the month ahead a week or so before the beginning of each month which will be posted up on the Masterthread when I get round to putting it up (probably early next week). If you want to get an idea of what's likely to be in for yourself you can go on the Boxrec schedule page and do a search refined by '4 star+' and 'Pro Boxing' and look for Male full title fights in that list. Most of the ones we pick are likely to fit those criteria. If there's an exceptional female fight on - like for undisputed - we may include it but generally we set the bar pretty high on the women's fights. Conversely if there's a particularly tasty men's match that isn't a title fight we may include it - and almost certainly will if both fighters are within the TBRB or RING top 10 for their division. And good to have you with us man, hope you enjoy it. Loving your username.. :lol1:

3y ago

MulaKO

How soon before the fight do you post each one? Same day of the fight? Day before? Week before? Usually posted the week of the fight on Monday You have the whole week to do your homework

3y ago

I_Didnt_Hear_No_Bell

How soon before the fight do you post each one? Same day of the fight? Day before? Week before?

3y ago

Tatabanya

Sorry man, I been kinda busy and missed your post.... I had kinda made the decison to skip on the Ajagba vs Shaw fight just simply based on their rankings and the lack of any titles on the line and I guess the same applies to Lopez vs Nova. But as I intimated elsewhere I was having some second thoughts about Ajagba vs Shaw when I saw how close the odds were and you can apply precisely the same argument for Nova vs Lopez. Ok this is a consequence of my not having pulled together the discussion thread sooner and got a proper feel for the balance we're gonna lean towards this year vis fight selection - ie - do we go for name recogniton or even fights. I'm not gonna include em this time I think partly because I left it kinda late now, but mainly cos they wouldn't have been included under the 2020 criteria.... However I would strongly encourage those who would have liked to have fights of this kinda of level in as long as they are fairly evenly bvalanced to make their feelings known on the Pre-Season discussion thread and any subsequent poll I may be putting up. It's kinda difficult cos the initial January schedule was actually pretty strong prior to Rivas and particularly Stanionis dropping out so I had been thinking we really didn't need any extra fights but the way things have fallen it might have been an idea to include one or both of these... Most likely the Ajagba fight since at least it cracks the 4 star Boxrec rating. My main issue with it is that neither Ajagaba or Shaw have ever beaten anyone of any significance. Either way, for better or for worse I've made the call on this one - No Pick Em for this week and we'll be looking at Beefy vs Eubank on the 21st plus most likely one of either Essuman vs Kongo or Riakporhe vs Glowacki depending significantly whether the sentiment on the Pre-Season discussion thread leans towards higher ranking or more even fights. Ha - if it sounds like I'm just kinda winging it, it's cos I am - I shoulda got on it earlier TBH but I'm juggling a bunch of RL stuff at the moment too. Let's try to put this one behind us and I'll firm up the concepts for the tone of this years Pick Em over the next week and try to get a bit more consistency going forward. Be much easier once I got the Masterthread up and running in a few days. It's OK man, no problem at all. I had realized that you are extremely busy, no big issue. It was just a development of the "less mismatches" argument you posted a few days back. Speaking of sudden ideas... would it be absurd, according to you and everybody else, deciding about multipliers on a weekend-by-weekend basis, namely without a pre-determined number of multipliers for the entire season? Perhaps this would add a little surprise, so to speak, and could be more stimulating for the players rather than the "let's-see-how-many-multipliers-I'm-left-with" approach.

3y ago

PICK_EM_CREW

PICK EM CREW: in keeping with my previous post above, next weekend - January 14 - there's a classic case of pair of "minor" fights which could be used for the Pick Em, given the balance in the forces at play. I'm talking about Adam Lopez vs Abraham Nova and Efe Ajagba vs Stephan Shaw. Whaddya say? Sorry man, I been kinda busy and missed your post.... I had kinda made the decison to skip on the Ajagba vs Shaw fight just simply based on their rankings and the lack of any titles on the line and I guess the same applies to Lopez vs Nova. But as I intimated elsewhere I was having some second thoughts about Ajagba vs Shaw when I saw how close the odds were and you can apply precisely the same argument for Nova vs Lopez. Ok this is a consequence of my not having pulled together the discussion thread sooner and got a proper feel for the balance we're gonna lean towards this year vis fight selection - ie - do we go for name recogniton or even fights. I'm not gonna include em this time I think partly because I left it kinda late now, but mainly cos they wouldn't have been included under the 2020 criteria.... However I would strongly encourage those who would have liked to have fights of this kinda of level in as long as they are fairly evenly bvalanced to make their feelings known on the Pre-Season discussion thread and any subsequent poll I may be putting up. It's kinda difficult cos the initial January schedule was actually pretty strong prior to Rivas and particularly Stanionis dropping out so I had been thinking we really didn't need any extra fights but the way things have fallen it might have been an idea to include one or both of these... Most likely the Ajagba fight since at least it cracks the 4 star Boxrec rating. My main issue with it is that neither Ajagaba or Shaw have ever beaten anyone of any significance. Either way, for better or for worse I've made the call on this one - No Pick Em for this week and we'll be looking at Beefy vs Eubank on the 21st plus most likely one of either Essuman vs Kongo or Riakporhe vs Glowacki depending significantly whether the sentiment on the Pre-Season discussion thread leans towards higher ranking or more even fights. Ha - if it sounds like I'm just kinda winging it, it's cos I am - I shoulda got on it earlier TBH but I'm juggling a bunch of RL stuff at the moment too. Let's try to put this one behind us and I'll firm up the concepts for the tone of this years Pick Em over the next week and try to get a bit more consistency going forward. Be much easier once I got the Masterthread up and running in a few days.

3y ago

PICK_EM_CREW

Any chance we could re-sticky this one for a few more days please, I'm hoping to get a bit more discussion going over the next few days, maybe put up a coupla polls over the weekend and then depending on what the feedback is pull together the 2023 Masterthread Monday or Tuesday next week in time for the fight(s) we include on nthe 21st. jaded -MEGA- BostonGuy BIGPOPPAPUMP Many thanks K

3y ago

Tatabanya

3y ago

Tatabanya

However my prefered answer would be to simply include fewer mismatches - even if it meant reaching down into the regional and national level schedules to get fights that were 50/50 or at least relatively even - but then of course that brings it's own problems... players ain't so invested in fighters they don't know and certainly are less invested in fights they can't even watch. Perennial problem and I doubt we'll ever find precisely the right balance. I'd certainly favor this solution over others. Let's face it, when, say, Naoya Inoue fights someone like Aran Dipaen, most people know everything about the Monster and nothing about Dipaen, therefore they just follow the odds. Having more balanced fights would improve the game's quality AND everybody's boxing knowledge (gotta do the homework!), the only problem being our new Champ MikeyG's eventual inability to secure footage of the involved fighters (well, I actually do NOT believe that we'd run fights THAT obscure :lol1:). There have been lots of instances last year where we could have had much more balanced fights to pick on than some over-predictable "title fight" mismatch. We should not miss fights like Briedis vs Opetaia - one of 2022's best - just because we don't know who the latter is. Of course not everybody has the time to study fighters during the week, this I understand. But those who can, or just know, should contribute in that sense (namely, suggesting a balanced fight for inclusion in our game). In a nutshell, I'd prefer something like (still not happening!) Lucas Browne vs Mahmoud Charr to a mismatch such as Inoue vs Dipaen.

3y ago

Citizen_Koba

Wouldn't it be better to see the play balance tilt towards those who can make the most perfect picks, instead of to those who use multipliers? Seems to me if you want to reward actual boxing knowledge that would be the way to go. While still keeping an element of gamesmanship. Well we're certainly moving in that direction by reducing the number of multpliers and making it so they can't be played on heavy favourites.. definitely the consesus is to reduce - although not eliminate entirely - the degree of gamesmanship. The changing of the points balance I'm open to but am reluctant to take too far all at once and it does feel to me like the current balance (bearing in mind the original Pick Em was 20/5/5) represents a kinda threshold... right now picking the right fighter is just as valuable a s picking how exactly they win. If we go to 10/10/10 or even further to something like 10/10/20 it changes the balance in a major way and I'm not sure it's necessarily in a good way. I think my problem is partly the simple degree of randomness and - well I guess you gotta call it what it is - corruption in boxing (or subjectivity if you want to be super diplomatic :lol1: ) means that over-emphasising the detail element in the game actually increases the impact of the frequent bad decisons in the sport as much or even more than it rewards the discernment of players. The main justification I can see for the route you suggest is that it's an effective answer to the simple reality that boxing has so many mismatches - if it wasn't so obvious in so many fights who the winner would be there wouldn't be so much need to emphasise the method and detail - the simple fact of choosing the right fighter time and again in 50/50 fights would demonstrate that you knew your shit, but obviously choosing a -500 favorite time after time says nothing about your knowledge except that you know what odds mean. However my prefered answer would be to simply include fewer mismatches - even if it meant reaching down into the regional and national level schedules to get fights that were 50/50 or at least relatively even - but then of course that brings it's own problems... players ain't so invested in fighters they don't know and certainly are less invested in fights they can't even watch. Perennial problem and I doubt we'll ever find precisely the right balance. What I will do ceratinly is poll the idea of changing the points balance but right now I'm not gonna make the option beyond 10/10/10 - if people want that - and I am personally ambivalent (could go either way, think it's worth exploring but am wary of unecessary changes) then we try it out in 2023 and see how it effects the game before going further.

3y ago

ShoulderRoll

The scoring balance is a tricky one and we got some strong opinions on both sides... I'm a bit wary of weighting it too heavy on method and detail - and even if we do move in that direction I'd be inclined to do it incrementally to see how it effects play balance rather than going the whole hog in one go. My inclination - if we do it at all - would be to start at 10/10/10 (W/M/D) for 2023 and then to see how it effects the game before taking it any further. Wouldn't it be better to see the play balance tilt towards those who can make the most perfect picks, instead of to those who use multipliers? Seems to me if you want to reward actual boxing knowledge that would be the way to go. While still keeping an element of gamesmanship.

3y ago

Citizen_Koba

Well, let's use the over/under then :rolleyes: Well yeah, could do I guess, I quite like the idea - but that'd involve introducing a whole new game mechanic whereas this would do something quite similar but could be seamlessly introduced using the system and pick categories we already got with minimal extra effort and almost no added complexity. I mean don't get me wrong, I ain't got some deep commitment to this - it was just more of a random thought - but it feels like it could be interesting and relatively easily introduced.

3y ago

Tatabanya

Much the same way as you could go to the bookies and place a bet on whether a fight will go the distance or on the under / over without specifying the winner. Well, let's use the over/under then :rolleyes:

3y ago