This Era has a solid No. 2 Heavyweight - And it Ain't Anthony Joshua!

I can’t believe it went this long it really should have ended after your post , bill wouldn’t have got himself in a pickle either . . :lol1: Simple people are VITAL to the fabric of society.....but not for the thinking part. Not ever. Doesn't work. This, is a thinking person's thread. This is why you're OUT. No offense.

Ali made his legend by beating Liston, one of the most feared HW champs ever, then coming back after 3 years out and beating, not just Frazier, but also Foreman and all the top HW contenders of his era. ALI FOUGHT THEM ALL AND SO DID FRAZIER. Imagine if, after beating Ali in their first fight, Smoking Joe had said, "I just beat The Greatest, I don't need to fight that bum Foreman. I'm fighting Ali again next" Then after winning the rematch, same thing from Ali - Nobody wants to see me school a big, slow fool like Foreman. What would be the point of that? Everybody knows me and Joe are the best in the division. I'm gonna fight Frazier one last time then retire" v I agree, and nobody can argue that Fury has plenty of opportunities for unfinished businesses at heavyweight right now, and if he retired he would be leaving the game early. If he did, he'd probably be doing better in his 60s than either Frazier or Ali did. People who truly respect the fighters have no problem respecting that. I think it's fair to say, in fact; that Fury, Wilder, Joshua, Usyk, Ruiz, Ortiz, Parker and a fair number of others active right now ALL have some unfinished business! One other thing that Id mention for our collective consideration. From Fury's perspective, NONE of the contenders We've mentioned present like Big George Foreman did in 1973, in terms of threat, accomplishments or deservedness.

I still like Fury as the #1 Heavyweight of this generation and Deontay Wilder as the #2. But as of right now, at least; a new fact has emerged. In their historic trilogy both fighters suffered great punishment. But as of right now, based on the words of the two fighters just today, it appears that their wars have pushed Fury to a declaration of retirement; but not Wilder!! https://www.************.com/2022/07...or-retirement/ This further supports the idea that Wilder is no worse than #2. And by very, very little. Fury, it is widely believed, will end his retirement if Joshua can redeem his reputation and reverse his latest loss. After that, Joshua would again be presented with another chance to fulfill his promise, as the leading heavyweight of this generation, should he go on to earn a win over Fury late this or early next year. Regardless of what happens in Usyk-Joshua II, neither fighter involved there has any opportunity to unseat Wilder as modern day nunber II. None. Joshua and Usyk are only competing against themselves for a number 3 spot, and with Usyk's two supremely important opponents Joshua and Mairis Briedis BOTH having lost their last fight, a win in their fight holds nothing to gain ground on either Fury or Wilder; only a collection of empty figurehead belts and a possiby shop at real champion Fury. Trust me, if Fury retires without beating the winner of Usyk/AJ he will not become a legend like Ali and his trilogy with Wilder will have no more historical significance than Patterson vs Johansson 1 2 & 3.

100% my friend. Fury made his legend off of Wilder just as Ali made his by going 2-1 against Frazier (who was able to deck Ali only once). Fury vs. Wilder was LEGENDARY and it takes TWO great fighters to make that happen. ...meanwhile, Joshua sat ouside the show because he TWICE couldn't get past his mandatory challengers....and HE gets to be called better than Fury and Wilder?????? Hahahaha...NO. Ali made his legend by beating Liston, one of the most feared HW champs ever, then coming back after 3 years out and beating, not just Frazier, but also Foreman and all the top HW contenders of his era. ALI FOUGHT THEM ALL AND SO DID FRAZIER. Imagine if, after beating Ali in their first fight, Smoking Joe had said, "I just beat The Greatest, I don't need to fight that bum Foreman. I'm fighting Ali again next" Then after winning the rematch, same thing from Ali - Nobody wants to see me school a big, slow fool like Foreman. What would be the point of that? Everybody knows me and Joe are the best in the division. I'm gonna fight Frazier one last time then retire" v

I still like Fury as the #1 Heavyweight of this generation and Deontay Wilder as the #2. But as of right now, at least; a new fact has emerged. In their historic trilogy both fighters suffered great punishment. But as of right now, based on the words of the two fighters just today, it appears that their wars have pushed Fury to a declaration of retirement; but not Wilder!! https://www.boxingnews24.com/2022/07...or-retirement/ This further supports the idea that Wilder is no worse than #2. And by very, very little. Fury, it is widely believed, will end his retirement if Joshua can redeem his reputation and reverse his latest loss. After that, Joshua would again be presented with another chance to fulfill his promise, as the leading heavyweight of this generation, should he go on to earn a win over Fury late this or early next year. Regardless of what happens in Usyk-Joshua II, neither fighter involved there has any opportunity to unseat Wilder as modern day nunber II. None. Joshua and Usyk are only competing against themselves for a number 3 spot, and with Usyk's two supremely important opponents Joshua and Mairis Briedis BOTH having lost their last fight, a win in their fight holds nothing to gain ground on either Fury or Wilder; only a collection of empty figurehead belts and a possiby shop at real champion Fury.

Looking over this thred, tossing the fact based and reasonable posts on one side and the girly, emo posts on the other, its pretty strait forward to conclude that Tyson Fury is the #1 Heavyweight of the past 7 years and Deontay Wilder is the #2. I agree that the question is buttoned up solid with the inevitable exception of a few stragglers. The next question is this: What does Anthony Joshua have to do to retain the #3 spot against Oleksandr Usyk in their rematch? Obviously, when weighing his impressive run against three terrible losses against two guys who would have little chance against the top two, Fury & Wilder (most likely), and fights where he lost to underdogs (except the one upcoming where the odds reflect lack of faith in Joshua as much as anything Usyk has ever done at heavyweight), we're looking at damaged goods. Would another loss to Usyk knock him back behind Ruiz, Usyk, Ortiz, and mabe even Joyce amongst his era's peers????

I am sure every single boxer in history can use life situations, to explain their performances. I get what you are saying, but? It does not prove me wrong, on the actual trilogy. Tyson Fury had 3 fights with Deontay Wilder, and was knocked down 4-5 times. They are the facts. The videos are out there mate, all the footage is out there to prove that it was not a easy trilogy. To knock a opponent down, you need to inflict considerable damage on that fighter. Taking all of this into consideration, I cannot and will not? Refer to Tyson Fury vs Deontay Wilder as a easy trilogy. Regardless of what went on outside the ring, that does not change what happened inside the ring. That does not change the violence, and the warrior exploits. I am adamant that the three Wilder fights, have influenced Fury's decision to get out of the game. In order for Fury to conclusively end the trilogy, he had to show resolve, endurance, durability and courage. There has been no other opponent who has asked so much of Tyson Fury 'And there may never be another fighter who does again'. You may mock Wilder and dismiss his efforts. But even Tyson Fury's own people, fighting men. None of them have denied Deontay Wilder. Note: Tyson Fury vs Deontay Wilder II was not a embarrassing fight. Wilder took a beating, but once again? Wilder never gave up, and he was still fighting back at the time of the stoppage 'Those are the facts' Fury did not score a legitimate knock out. It took until the third fight for Tyson Fury to conclusive end the trilogy. I am done with this thread. 100% my friend. Fury made his legend off of Wilder just as Ali made his by going 2-1 against Frazier (who was able to deck Ali only once). Fury vs. Wilder was LEGENDARY and it takes TWO great fighters to make that happen. ...meanwhile, Joshua sat ouside the show because he TWICE couldn't get past his mandatory challengers....and HE gets to be called better than Fury and Wilder?????? Hahahaha...NO.

Everyone knows he spent half or at least the last weeks of his training camp in the hospital with his wife and had no proper preparation fir Wilder in the third fight because his newborn nearly died . you can continue to stretch things on here but the way I deal with posters like you on here is when you get out of line now is simple….I just show facts . https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-b1916944.html Everyone also knows he was not remotely at a level he should be in the first fight that’s something weird ppl would argue . Only the second fight was he at his best and he embarrassed Wilder so if you can’t understand these things of why the trilogy actually was one sided and a near shut out of winning rounds well it’s better you then me . “Just Check yourself” I hope you see the irony of this remark it’s like Bills comment of not crossing over the line where he continues to make childish threads and posts lies on here now that he’s been called on the things he does on the forum . After A.J wins it won’t really matter he’ll be gone and at least you know slightly more about modern boxing then he does but I can do this all day be my guest ? :lol1: I am sure every single boxer in history can use life situations, to explain their performances. I get what you are saying, but? It does not prove me wrong, on the actual trilogy. Tyson Fury had 3 fights with Deontay Wilder, and was knocked down 4-5 times. They are the facts. The videos are out there mate, all the footage is out there to prove that it was not a easy trilogy. To knock a opponent down, you need to inflict considerable damage on that fighter. Taking all of this into consideration, I cannot and will not? Refer to Tyson Fury vs Deontay Wilder as a easy trilogy. Regardless of what went on outside the ring, that does not change what happened inside the ring. That does not change the violence, and the warrior exploits. I am adamant that the three Wilder fights, have influenced Fury's decision to get out of the game. In order for Fury to conclusively end the trilogy, he had to show resolve, endurance, durability and courage. There has been no other opponent who has asked so much of Tyson Fury 'And there may never be another fighter who does again'. You may mock Wilder and dismiss his efforts. But even Tyson Fury's own people, fighting men. None of them have denied Deontay Wilder. Note: Tyson Fury vs Deontay Wilder II was not a embarrassing fight. Wilder took a beating, but once again? Wilder never gave up, and he was still fighting back at the time of the stoppage 'Those are the facts' Fury did not score a legitimate knock out. It took until the third fight for Tyson Fury to conclusive end the trilogy. I am done with this thread.

We will know a lot after Usyk and Joshua fight again, but some of the same issues will repeat. These notions of how to determine the quality of opposition where very subjective statements are used to draw conclusions. For example, the fact that Ortiz is "over 40" should be carefully balanced against his performance. Many people here thought Martin would destroy Ortiz lol. The people often turn around and Assume that based on the fact that Ortiz is over 40, Martin should be denigrated to some scrap heap. Is it really relevant that Ortiz is over 40? or is the important point that he beat Martin? There are many ways to approach creating an order, as long as the criteria applies to all fighters equally and are not simply fanciful notions. I agree with all of this. Of course, subjectivity can never be fully removed when makinf ranking order outside of statistical criteria. Therefore, the subjective calculation must be HIGHLY INFORMED as well as highly INTEGRATIOUS. Win loss alonge gets you nowhere. Is Berbick better than Ali? For examole. Knowledge and integrity folks.

Redeemer lost virtually all his picks lol. NObody ever made a ban bet with him. Shoulder Roll owned him on a bet... And I will submit the following as proof: Look at how desperately Redeemer has tried to weasel out from this bet. It will be a miracle if he follows through. Ban bet... this guy can't even get a pick right! Lol, I’m just here for the banter, mate. I don’t know what’s gonna be on the AJ-Usyk card, but billeau2-redeemer is my personal co-headliner now you guys have ramped the stakes up

No he wasn’t that’s all lies . Fury was definitely not fully prepared the first fight and the third fight with kid problems and a sketchy training cAmp . Not sure why you post lies all the time on here but it what keeps you from being taking seriously on here ,you ruin your own reputation on here all for the times which is every good post you do about 3 bad ones ​​​​​……check myself ? No you have to do that multiple posters told you you don’t make sense bc you don’t . Explain to me why he was not fully prepared? Tyson Fury was fully prepared, he had a full training camp and a few comeback fights. He was not in the his best condition, but that is just how things are sometimes in sport. The fight was also a draw. Fury was knocked down twice, and backed up all night. You do not win world titles like that. You have a issue with Deontay Wilder, the same why people have a issue with Anthony Joshua. You mock and dismiss his achievements and efforts just like some people do against Joshua. You know what I am saying is correct, and you do not like it at all. Just Check yourself, and everything will be alright.. That is all I have to say here to be honest mate.

Being knocked down 4-5 times is not dominating a opponent. Being BRUTALLY stopped in 2 of 3 fights while barely scraping by in the gift draw Wilder received in the 1st, IS being dominated

We actually have an order that was created for us over nearly 200 years of boxing's evolution from unlicensed, bare knuckle prize fighting to to a legally ratified worldwide combat sport with universally recognised rules and titles. Having multiple titles in each division muddies the waters when it comes to determining who is number 1 at any given time. But the fact that all the heavyweight title belts, including the Ring Magazine, are held by the same 2 men right now narrows the field considerably when it comes to determining who is number 2. It's either Fury or Usyk. Wilder and AJ shouldn't even be in the conversation. - - AJ the guy who unified and defended the titles that drug cheat Fury cast asunder. Drug Cheat Fury in the 6 cumulative years of holding the Ring title has 2 of the most measly defenses of any heavy and in history, ie U been knocked out of the conversation since birth, I mean, what grade they put U back in this year?

Fury is no 1 of era as he beat wilder? So what happens when wilder loses his next fight and Josh also destroys wilder down the line? let's face it fury will unretire to beat usyk/winner. He has to as it's the only way. Fury can stay retired if he wants but it makes no sense if being best of era is important. the wilder win is good but I fear the win will diminish the more who beat wilder

We actually have an order that was created for us over nearly 200 years of boxing's evolution from unlicensed, bare knuckle prize fighting to to a legally ratified worldwide combat sport with universally recognised rules and titles. Having multiple titles in each division muddies the waters when it comes to determining who is number 1 at any given time. But the fact that all the heavyweight title belts, including the Ring Magazine, are held by the same 2 men right now narrows the field considerably when it comes to determining who is number 2. It's either Fury or Usyk. Wilder and AJ shouldn't even be in the conversation. It has to do with the culmultive effect of other fights I would imagine. Usyk only beat Chisora and Anthony.

We will know a lot after Usyk and Joshua fight again, but some of the same issues will repeat. These notions of how to determine the quality of opposition where very subjective statements are used to draw conclusions. For example, the fact that Ortiz is "over 40" should be carefully balanced against his performance. Many people here thought Martin would destroy Ortiz lol. The people often turn around and Assume that based on the fact that Ortiz is over 40, Martin should be denigrated to some scrap heap. Is it really relevant that Ortiz is over 40? or is the important point that he beat Martin? There are many ways to approach creating an order, as long as the criteria applies to all fighters equally and are not simply fanciful notions. We actually have an order that was created for us over nearly 200 years of boxing's evolution from unlicensed, bare knuckle prize fighting to to a legally ratified worldwide combat sport with universally recognised rules and titles. Having multiple titles in each division muddies the waters when it comes to determining who is number 1 at any given time. But the fact that all the heavyweight title belts, including the Ring Magazine, are held by the same 2 men right now narrows the field considerably when it comes to determining who is number 2. It's either Fury or Usyk. Wilder and AJ shouldn't even be in the conversation.

Your misleading the actual events . Fury fought Wilder 3 times . Only one of those fights was he actually fully prepared and it was disasterous for Wilder . No one said the other fights were easy ,partly bc if Fury’s not really on point he can be damaged because hes highly overatted to what he’s made out to be but let’s not confuse that and how many rounds he coasted to winning , it was in fact the biggest landslide boxing’s ever seen for a trilogy and in fact was seen as dominating . Fury was fully prepared for all the fights. Now you are changing your opinion on the trilogy. Deep down you know it was not a easy trilogy for Fury. There is no way 'Easy' is the correct description for the effort Fury had to put in to end that rivalry. Dominating, easy, landslide, these descriptive words are out of place mate. I know you don't like Wilder for some strange reason, but you are treating him and his efforts? The same away people mock and dismiss Anthony Joshua. Check yourself.

I wonder where Usyk would rate using his point system ? :lol1: I wonder where Usyk would rate using his point system ? His system is too subjective for me to even have a clue about that. I can't figure out why he seems to think number 2 is between Wilder and AJ, considering they both lost their last fights to undefeated opponents.

call BS on that. You hear that "Joshua has fought better opposition" all the time, but its never the truth. I like AJ just fine, an exceptional Heavyweight. 3rd best of his era if he gets past Oleksander Usyk in the rematch (Arguably the 4th best if he doesn't). But the idea that he's had a better career than Deontay Wilder is a MYTH. Apply some objective science, it trumps opinions and impressions Every Day of the week: Here is the Data: Points awarded to the quality of an opponent at the time of their fight with the respective champions (Title Claimants). On a scale of 1-10 (One is a terrible fighter/Ten Is Hall of fame-prime of career level Champion): Joshua Resume: Matt Skelton, 28-8-0, Long faded former fringe contender, K-1 contender........4 points Kingpin Johnson, 29-6-1, Gate keeper, non-contender.......................5 points Gary Cornish, 21-0-0, Domestic prospect, non-contender...................5 points Dillian Whyte, 16-0-0, Prospect in development, would emerge later as a contender......8 points Charles Martin, 23-0-1, Prospect in development, fortunate to be a beltholder............8 points Dominic Breazeale, 17-0-0, Prospect in development, fringe contender.....................6 points Eric Molina, 25-3-0, Gate keeper, non-contender............................5 points Wladamir Klitschko, 64-4-0, Ex-champion defeated by Fury, Retired, 41 years old.......9 points Carlos Takam, 35-3-1, Dangerious fringe contender........................................7 points Joseph Parker, 24-0-0, Top 5 contender, beltholder, would later disappoint........9 points Alexander Povetkin, 34-1-0, Longtime top contender. Slightly past prime at 39............8 points Andy Ruiz Jr., 32-1-0, Solid fringe contender ranked just outside top 10. .......8 points LOSS Andy Ruiz Jr. II, 33-1-0, Fat, lathargic in the rematch......................8 points Kubrat Pulev, 28-1-0, Another Longtime top contender. Past prime at 39............8 points Oleksandr Usyk, 18-0-0, Cruiserweight unifier, untested at heavyweight...............9 points LOSS Sub total – Quality of Opposition.................90 Total Points Career building opponents: Average ranking of Joshua's other 11 opponents.......................3 points Bonus Points awarded for the sheer number of those early/lesser opponents............3 Grand total – Quality of Opposition.................96 Total Points Weighted value – Point deductions for losses (Opponent value x severity of loss/Informed subjective): (-8 points for Ruiz Jr I) (-8 points for Usyk) Sub-Total: -16 Points Final Score minus losses: 80 Career Points for Quality of opposition value. Wilder Resume Kelvin Price, 13-0-0, Fellow prospect, non-contender...............4 points Audley Harrison, 31-6-0, Long faded former fringe contender, Olympian......4 points Malik Scott, 36-1-1, Fellow prospect, non-contender...............5 points Bermane Stivern I, 24-1-1, World ranked title holder in prime............7 points Eric Molina, 23-2-0, Gate keeper, non-contender............................5 points Johann Duhaupas, 32-2-0, Top 15 ranked fringe contender............6 points Artur Szpilka, 20-1-0, Lower regarded fringe contender, later disappointed..........5 points Chris Arreola, 36-4-1, Longtime contender, still near prime...........6 points Gerald Washington, 18-0-1, Newly emerged contender.................6 points Bermane Stivern II, 25-2-1, World ranked former title holder............6 points Luis Ortiz I, 28-0-0, Top ranked world title contender....................9 points Tyson Fury I, 27-0-0, Undefeated linial (actual) World Champion, unification......10 points Dominic Breazeale, 20-1-0, Contemporary contender in 2nd title shot.............6 points Luis Ortiz II, 31-1-0, Top ranked world title contender in rematch....................8 points Tyson Fury II, 29-0-1, Undefeated linial (actual) World Champion, unification......10 points LOSS Tyson Fury III, 30-0-1, Undefeated linial (actual) World Champion......10 points LOSS Sub total – Quality of Opposition.................87 Total Points Career building opponents: Average ranking of Wilder's other 29 opponents.......................3 points Bonus Points awarded for the sheer number of those early/lesser opponents...................5 Grand total – Quality of Opposition.................95 Total Points Weighted value – Point deductions for losses (Opponent value x severity of loss/Informed subjective): (-7 points for Fury II) (-6 points for Fury III) Sub-Total: -13 Points Final Score minus losses: 82 Career Points for Quality of opposition value. Conclusion: Deontay Wilder's career opponents earn him 82 points, while Anthony Joshua's earn him only 80. This fan-friendly narrative that claims that “Wilder has fought bums” and Joshua has "fought better contenders" is inaccurate. The reality is Wilder has fought better opposition than Joshua has in the professional ranks; and has rendered better result against them; and any counter opinion is simply delusion. To Joshua's fans; Remember..........................Facts don't care about your feelings. What you're reading now, is nothing but the facts. If anyone can convincingly argue ANY of the merit values assigned to any of the fighters listed, I'm all ears. If you can't do that, or choose not to; the question of Wilder vs. Joshua's total Quality of opposition has it's logically arrived at answer. What I read there is a mixture of facts and your own subjective feelings about those facts. And I'm baffled as to why you seem to think that either Wilder or Joshua are number 2 in the heavyweight division. They both lost their last fights. So logically, the 2 men who beat them should be 1 and 2 in the division.

Out of interest, are either of you allowed to make an alt account if you lose this bet? Or is it total annihilation? Redeemer lost virtually all his picks lol. NObody ever made a ban bet with him. Shoulder Roll owned him on a bet... And I will submit the following as proof: Look at how desperately Redeemer has tried to weasel out from this bet. It will be a miracle if he follows through. Ban bet... this guy can't even get a pick right!