The GOAT HW - Joe Louis vs Muhammad Ali

Joe Louis is my all time favorite fighter, and my pick for goat.

Ali is hella overrated, too many inject celebrity and fame and politics into the question of greatness.

Joe Louis, is my hero... him plus Sugar Ray Robinson... If they were alive... I’d pass out like a hoe trying to get an autograph...

Idk I'm still trying to find out why toughness came into the conversation. Then we agree. I say Tyson EASY was the better fighter. Foreman never had a run like Tyson did. He has one of the most embarrassing reigns in the history of the HW division in his 2nd reign & I think he got 2 defenses in during his young Foreman years. Tyson was the man from 86 to 90. And then even when he was well into coasting he won a belt or two & kept some belts for a year or so iirc. And again with the toughness. Idk what toughness has to do all that much with anything. Tyson was the HW champion from 86 to 90 & 96 to 97 or something like that. He did okay on potential. He's less of a what if then you are making him out to be. Granted we all expected more of him, but things landed how they landed & I suspect if most HW champions in history got as much as Tyson got so quickly & so young I'd suspect most of them would have fallen off quicker than Tyson. Thats just the luck of history for Ali, Frazier & Foreman with each other. If Tyrell Biggs woulda became some star then Tyson woulda had some Olympic star on his resume. If their had been a 1980 US Olympic team at all maybe Tyson coulda fought that gold medalist & made his name bigger. Hell if Marvis Frazier had been better maybe Tyson woulda had a rival topple & gain him more respect. Who do you suppose 86 to 90 Tyson was to fight to get the rep Foreman did off of Frazier? Its not Tyson's fault he was born to end up in a garbage HW era. Its his fault he fell off too soon, but that often can't be helped & like I said I think the insane success he had at too young of a age probably ruined him in my estimation. I suspect the Holyfield vs Tyson rivalry woulda been all the more entertaining if they had essfought in 88 or 89 when one could argue Tyson woulda been more serious into boxing. Idk doe getting into some wider speculation now. it came into the conversation becuae toughness was mike tyson's biggest flaw. but his softeness overcomes his boxing ability imo. he's not built for this sport. idk, maybe he was for a short period of time like you said. hell, maybe he even was the goat for that short period of time. but he didn't sustain it. george foreman would have fvvcked him up. two completely diffrent types of fighters.

Ali was great no doubt but the guys who gave him problems in the 70's would have given him the same problems in the 60's. I give him props for beating Foreman while being past his prime, however his fanboys always chose to forget that he beat Foreman who was being captivated in Africa for a month. It's funny to me when I hear people saying Iron Mike was a mental midget in his prime. Past his prime yes but in his prime he was a total opposite - in fact one of the best mentally focused fighters in his prime. His only problem is that during his prime he didn't have any ATG fighter to beat except the old Holmes (although I'd still have him beating prime Holmes). To cut it short: Tyson didn't have a great resume (despite still beating very good fighters), but at the same time in my opinion was the best in H2H comparisons. Cus loved Ali and still claimed Louis would have beaten him for a reason. In fact I'd give Ali a chance of stopping Louis late, but I would still favor Louis over him. Good post. It’s all fun to discuss, and that’s why we do it, but in the end, it’s all opinion, conjecture. As great a boxing figure as Cus was, he might’ve been terribly wrong about the outcome between Louis and Ali. We’ve seen it all before: boxing great choosing the wrong man to win in a fight among current boxers. What then of the fantasy match-ups? Lol

Larry Holmes.

Ali had the harder career, Ali was in the better era with much tougher competition. Muhammad Ali for me in that case.

Good post. I won’t get into a point-by-point; suffice it to say, I agree with some ideas and not with others. I think you have a valid argument as to why Ali is overrated. Nonetheless, I believe Ali deserves his reputation. Some boxing experts rate him not only as the greatest HW of all time, but the greatest boxer ever. That said, it might come as a surprise that I consider Louis possibly the greater heavyweight. It’s splitting hairs at this level, and one opinion is as good as the next. I feel the same way about this. Tyson is way overrated by those who don’t know heavyweight history. But I’ve always said, on his best night, Mike Tyson was capable of beating any man that ever set foot inside a ring. He might be overrated, but that’s saying something. Ali was great no doubt but the guys who gave him problems in the 70's would have given him the same problems in the 60's. I give him props for beating Foreman while being past his prime, however his fanboys always chose to forget that he beat Foreman who was being captivated in Africa for a month. It's funny to me when I hear people saying Iron Mike was a mental midget in his prime. Past his prime yes but in his prime he was a total opposite - in fact one of the best mentally focused fighters in his prime. His only problem is that during his prime he didn't have any ATG fighter to beat except the old Holmes (although I'd still have him beating prime Holmes). To cut it short: Tyson didn't have a great resume (despite still beating very good fighters), but at the same time in my opinion was the best in H2H comparisons. Cus loved Ali and still claimed Louis would have beaten him for a reason. In fact I'd give Ali a chance of stopping Louis late, but I would still favor Louis over him.

Of course the story is relevant. Everything is relevant if we are discussing all this sh^t. And idk what toughness gots to do with Tyson being the guy with more tools. Foreman had power no doubt, but thats all he had. I mean f#ck man this ain't that complicated. Go watch some young foreman or old foreman fights it don't even matter. Then go watch Tyson's first 30 odd fights. Look at the sh^t Tyson was doing in the ring. And granted as we've gone on about Tyson did start phoning it in way too young, but Foreman never looked as good as young Tyson did. what do you mean toughness have nothing to do with tyson being more skilled? who says foreman is more skilled? he obviously isn't. what we are talkling about is who is the better fighter? who is the tougher fighter? tyson had great potenatial. like i said he is the biggest 'what if' in the history of the sport. but that is all he is. foreman has SMASHED another ATG in Joe Frazier. Tyson did not,

well said. louis or ali? As I said in an earlier post, I think it’s splitting hairs at the highest levels, but I lean towards Louis. Now, I’m not saying Ali would lose in a head-to-head contest, but I slightly favor Louis in a question that figures many variables. I don’t want to get involved in a debate about it, this sort of thing has been beaten to death around here, but much of my reasoning has to do with general athletic performance at different times in history. Most great modern athletes would be considered “better” than their historical counterparts. But if they were all born on the same day, with access to the same things, be it in 1900 or 2000, who would be considered better? It’s impossible to say. It’s all very subjective.

Excuses....

Man I think the magic was gone well before prison. I think the magic was gone before he lost. I think he was coasting for a fight or two before Buster took him out. I think he coasted most of his career. But yea the world got too insane for Tyson I think. He was a kid who didn't get booty til he was 18 cuz he was balls deep in boxing. By 21 he's champion of the world. Pretty quickly after that he's postered up everywhere & gots a video game & marrying a popular actress & banging every girl that comes within 5 feet of him & he gots money on top of money even with King robbing him. How can one keep their sanity after all that. Its sorta surreal to think about how the world changed so quickly on him. Just reading your synopsis of his life during that period is surreal. Lol Well encapsulated. Tyson and I are only a few months apart. I remember his time well. Looking back on it, it must’ve been one hell of a ride. No one can seriously fault the guy for imploding. It was just too much, too fast, for a kid from the ‘hood to handle. Who would’ve thought, all these years later, Mike would find a popularity of a different sort? And, yeah, you’re right. The magic was already fading before Douglas. It was simply that the Douglas fight was the climax, where it all came crashing down.

Man I think the magic was gone well before prison. I think the magic was gone before he lost. I think he was coasting for a fight or two before Buster took him out. I think he coasted most of his career. But yea the world got too insane for Tyson I think. He was a kid who didn't get booty til he was 18 cuz he was balls deep in boxing. By 21 he's champion of the world. Pretty quickly after that he's postered up everywhere & gots a video game & marrying a popular actress & banging every girl that comes within 5 feet of him & he gots money on top of money even with King robbing him. How can one keep their sanity after all that. Its sorta surreal to think about how the world changed so quickly on him. And people talk about his 'wild side'. I think, if anything, Mike was a bit too much of a normal guy. That kind of shift in life would break plenty. If at 21 I was wealthy beyond belief, could **** anything around me, and every bloke was simultaneously scared of me and in awe of me... I reckon I'd be lucky to see my 22nd birthday. Also puts into perspective just how special the best were. They dealt with it and excelled.

And that’s probably part of the mythos. It happens with artists and entertainers who die young. It has a way of creating legend. In Tyson’s case, his career died young. well said. louis or ali?

i get what you mean. if tyson was 100% on any given night he would probably beat any hw in history. including ali and louis. but he was not capable of this. mentally. tyson is boxing's greatest 'what if'. And that’s probably part of the mythos. It happens with artists and entertainers who die young. It has a way of creating legend. In Tyson’s case, his career died young.

I think Tyson's downfall wasn't so much any mental issues, but the fact he had to be uncivilized to stay who he was. I've always been of the opinion that when things get too good its hard to stay as into the hitting mfers in the head business. And I think Tyson was rolling in p#ssy & money & nice things & spending too much time enjoying himself & that took the edge off him. And I don't think he ever got it back. I don't think you can get that back once its gone. Even if you were dirt poor & make some money & return to being dirt poor that time when you weren't dirt poor has still ruined you. Or I should say it ruins A LOT of guys. I think Floyd is an example of a guy you could pay $10B a fight in his prime & he'd still stay dedicated to his craft. I think Manny is probably that type of guy. I think Ali was probably that type of guy. Canelo too. Any of these guys with some longevity who were among the best paid guys year in, year out are like that. But a lot of cats catch one too many big paydays & its over. I think Tyson was that guy. I think Joshua might be that guy. I think the first guy who beat Tyson was that type of guy & I suspect the first guy to beat Joshua will be that type of guy too. Idk thats my angle with Tyson's unfulfilled potential doe. I don't buy that Atlas bs where Tyson had 5 fights & lost them all. Very interesting thoughts. Not sure I ever formed these ideas myself, with regards to Tyson. You’re right, in a savage sport, many — perhaps most — fighters need to feel hungry to stay on top. That goes for nearly every other endeavor in life. Tyson got fat, figuratively speaking, very quickly. He bought into his own aura of invincibility. Once he experienced real adversity, Mike crumbled. Then came the jail time, and he couldn’t recapture the magic. It was a brief but exciting time in heavyweight history.

Good post. I won’t get into a point-by-point; suffice it to say, I agree with some ideas and not with others. I think you have a valid argument as to why Ali is overrated. Nonetheless, I believe Ali deserves his reputation. Some boxing experts rate him not only as the greatest HW of all time, but the greatest boxer ever. That said, it might come as a surprise that I consider Louis possibly the greater heavyweight. It’s splitting hairs at this level, and one opinion is as good as the next. I feel the same way about this. Tyson is way overrated by those who don’t know heavyweight history. But I’ve always said, on his best night, Mike Tyson was capable of beating any man that ever set foot inside a ring. He might be overrated, but that’s saying something. i get what you mean. if tyson was 100% on any given night he would probably beat any hw in history. including ali and louis. but he was not capable of this. mentally. tyson is boxing's greatest 'what if'.

Foreman was outta the sport a decade to get his head right & confidence back. The guy legit had a panic attack after a fight. It wasn't no rumor bs like this Joshua stuff is. Sure Foreman had more longevity, but it took him a lot of work to get him back in the sport & his story is more the story of two careers. Tyson made too much money to recover his caveman ways I feel like. If Foreman hadn't had money woes with his church or w/e he mighta not even come back to boxing. LOL come on man. Look at Tyson in the 80's. Dude was destruction personified. Foreman was a slow thudding power puncher & thats it. Foreman woulda named one of his kids Becky to have had Tyson's skills. But no doubt Tyson's skills didn't matter cuz he lost his fire or motivation or maybe I'm wrong & he mentally shutdown like you're suggesting, but there is no argument Tyson had more toolsfan. in his toolbox. I wouldn't go that far. I think you can be built for this for a shorter time doe sometimes & Tyson was one of those guys. It is what it is. Not everyone can be or wants to be a savage forever. Its probably better for ones health to get out early. I've been saying that forever & I think its true. I love all these young promising guys going for it in their first dozen or so fights these days. Hopefully they'll make their money & gtfo of the sport quicker too. the circumstances are irrelavant here. the end product is. you are a boxing fan.you know your history. beetwen foreman and tyson, who was toughert? tyson had the aura. forema had the toughness. come on man. you want to tell me tyson was tougher than foreman? or tougher to beat? come on man, you know the answer. tyson was soft.

First off I hate fantasy bs, but this Ali is "the greatest" sh^t drives me cray cray lol. Ali was damn near the Conor McGregor of his day minus the quitting. He talked & built controversy better than anyone in history except Jack Johnson (who's underrated among great HW fighters too). He was charismatic & great at making fans love or hate him. Louis was very regular guy-ish so never garnered quite that level of hype or love or hate with fans. Popularity breeds hype in accomplishments quite often. But back to the point. Ali lost to Frazier in his prime. He lost to Ken Norton in his prime & he probably Canelo'd him in the other two fights & plenty of people think that or feel Norton could've easily gotten the nod in all 3 fights. And lets not bs, Ken Norton wasn't "tremendous". His whole rep is built on his fights with Ali. And he did appear to have Ali's number doe, but beyond Ali he didn't have a lot of success with too many other top guys. The fact his in the HOF lives & dies with the people who think he could've won all 3 fights with Ali & did actually get the nod in one of those fights. F#cking Norton was damn near the GGG of his day. Ali is among the all time most overrated boxers. And Joe Louis might be among the most underrated great HW's of all time. More people seem to think Rocky was better than Louis cuz Rocky beat him when Louis was 73 years old. Almost Rocky's whole notable resume is built on beating old mfers ffs. He's overrated right with Ali. The facts remain Louis was undefeated in his prime from age 23 to like 36. Granted he wasn't in a popular HW era like Ali, but he still beat more HOFers (8) than Ali (7). And all Louis' L's were to other HOFers. Ali lost to f#cking Leon Spinks & Trevor Berbick. Ali was quick as f#ck so Louis would have to chase him down, but I think he wins rounds on effective aggression & probably catches up to him late & stops him or takes a decision. Ali wasn’t in his prime against Frazier and Norton. GTFOH...

these two are widely considered as the two best heavies ever. but who is the best in your opinion? It’s Ali. Higher skill level and better resume.