Kostya Tszyu was a better amateur & professional than GGG

I think we can agree that generally most guys peak between 27-33, it's normally the apex for age and experience...and agree on revovery into mid 30s, trust me I know first hand haha, but I think boxing is different from a lot of sports in the sense that there are lots of examples of guys who peak in their early 20s or mid 30s. Off the top my of my head Naseem Hamed and Tyson as 2 examples of guys who peaked early and Glen Johnson and Archie Moore as guys who peaked later...there are lots more examples and for a variety of reasons. My point in this comparison is that it's hard to compare purely by judging results based on one specific age...as you said GGG went pro later, this would give him less wear and tear for example...he also didnt get matched very hard and had more short fights as a result. His 20th fight was the first guy he fought that could punch back and soak up the punishment a bit, Tszyu fought for his first title in his 14th fight. Ironically Phillips was his 20th fight, it's hard to say if Golovkin would have lost to a guy like that at the same age and experience, someone with ambition, chin, and power, for arguments sake I'm gonna agree with you and say he wouldn't. I am not arguing that Golovkin isn't the better older age fighter, I think he has aged better, but there can be reasons...Degale had a tonne of injuries for example and took lots of punishing fights. Tszyu similarly had problems with back injuries, I'm sure Golovkin hasn't been injury free but his body seems to have held up well. Another thing to consider is that as I mentioned before generally the guys that have maintained elite into their mid 30s-40s have generally been 160lbs and up, of course there have been exceptions, but in general. Tszyu's performance against Hatton also wasn't bad, there were lots of things against him in that fight, refereeing, Hattons style, but he was still competitive against a genuine, strong 140lb fighter of equal size and stature. His performance against Mitchell 6 months earlier was pretty destructive too...I agree with you though Golovkins performance against Canelo trumps those...who is the best fighter either guy has faced. I would rather focus on their overall body of work, which I think we agree is pretty close, just thought I'd address some of the points you made, which are interesting. Yep, for the record i think Tszyu was a great fighter. Beating still decent fighters like Laporte and Mayweather so early in hes career, and very durable men like Hector Lopez and Jake Rodriguez made him one of the two most exciting prospects in the world at the time. Another thing worth considering btw is how well Tszyu carried hes amateur style into the pros, he didnt change majorly if you watch hes amatuer fights with Forrest ect.I wonder how Golovkin may have performed if hed remained the more fluid boxer puncher he was beating Dirrel and Bute. Instead of the Chavez clone Abel tried to turn him into. I remember Emanuel Stewart trying to tap into Lennox Lewis old amateur skills and movement, which he eventually managed to do. A big contrast to the one dimensional clumsy right hand happy slugger Pepe Correa had turned him into. Sometimes these trainers dont see the traits as an amatuer that make these guy's so great.

W/e. Not like im saying it's a massive gap. And how technically sound can you be when you have a glaring hole on your defence like Tszyu does? Golovkin doesnt have that. Tszyu gets hurt, kd'd and ko'd because his defense isnt as good, not because Golovkin is just super chinned. You forgot footwork, maybe jab too. Glaring hole in his defence? I think their defensive weaknesses are similar tbh, Golovkin might be a little bit cuter on the inside, but he gets hit plenty and at a high %, footwork id give GGG the advantage, upper body movement Tszyu. I think in both cases its the style they choose to adopt that gets them hit more than they should, you only have to look at Tszyu's Forrest performance, or certain pro fights where he chose to stay out of trouble and box, similar to GGG. There differentiator is for sure the chin and punch resistance...so i'll agree to disagree on that. If Golovkin had fought enough live guys with height and reach on him or even similar dimensions, I think his defence would have been under more scrutiny, so far Jacobs has been the only guy who fits that description. Its a shame for example that he hasn't had the fights at that sort of level, not saying its his fault. The BJS fight should have happened by now for example, and that would have told us more. Jab Golovkin...most other punches and the ability to land them at top level - Tszyu. But Golovkin's jab is so good that it single handedly wins him rounds or at least keeps him in them.

W/e. Not like im saying it's a massive gap. And how technically sound can you be when you have a glaring hole on your defence like Tszyu does? Golovkin doesnt have that. Tszyu gets hurt, kd'd and ko'd because his defense isnt as good, not because Golovkin is just super chinned. You forgot footwork, maybe jab too. Kostya also lacked a good jab. He relied mainly on his straight right hand. GGG is much more versatile. He has a great jab and can also fight on the inside better.

He is not a more skilled fighter than Tszyu...taking weight out of it, so relatively speaking...He's stronger, better chin, stamina, maybe IQ? Debatable. Tszyu was more skilled, technically better. W/e. Not like im saying it's a massive gap. And how technically sound can you be when you have a glaring hole on your defence like Tszyu does? Golovkin doesnt have that. Tszyu gets hurt, kd'd and ko'd because his defense isnt as good, not because Golovkin is just super chinned. You forgot footwork, maybe jab too.

I think Golovkin left it late to move in the pros, but the age thing matters for one outstanding reason. The body takes longer and longer to recover as you progress through your 30s.Middles are generally done by 33,look at the shadow of Degale recently. The main thing is Tszyu was clearly beaten and stopped in hes prime by a decent but far from elite fighter, Golovkin fought well at an advanced age against a great fighter in hes only defeat. Like i said, the Judah win was probably more outstanding than any of Golovkins wins, although the draw with Canelo is close. I do agree with you that GGGs career has been disappointing and includes alot of time wasted on inferior opposition though. Some great fights couldve been made. I dont think it was down to lack of confidence though, the Pirog fight was signed and it was Pirog who pulled out and retired. What a fight that couldve been. I think we can agree that generally most guys peak between 27-33, it's normally the apex for age and experience...and agree on revovery into mid 30s, trust me I know first hand haha, but I think boxing is different from a lot of sports in the sense that there are lots of examples of guys who peak in their early 20s or mid 30s. Off the top my of my head Naseem Hamed and Tyson as 2 examples of guys who peaked early and Glen Johnson and Archie Moore as guys who peaked later...there are lots more examples and for a variety of reasons. My point in this comparison is that it's hard to compare purely by judging results based on one specific age...as you said GGG went pro later, this would give him less wear and tear for example...he also didnt get matched very hard and had more short fights as a result. His 20th fight was the first guy he fought that could punch back and soak up the punishment a bit, Tszyu fought for his first title in his 14th fight. Ironically Phillips was his 20th fight, it's hard to say if Golovkin would have lost to a guy like that at the same age and experience, someone with ambition, chin, and power, for arguments sake I'm gonna agree with you and say he wouldn't. I am not arguing that Golovkin isn't the better older age fighter, I think he has aged better, but there can be reasons...Degale had a tonne of injuries for example and took lots of punishing fights. Tszyu similarly had problems with back injuries, I'm sure Golovkin hasn't been injury free but his body seems to have held up well. Another thing to consider is that as I mentioned before generally the guys that have maintained elite into their mid 30s-40s have generally been 160lbs and up, of course there have been exceptions, but in general. Tszyu's performance against Hatton also wasn't bad, there were lots of things against him in that fight, refereeing, Hattons style, but he was still competitive against a genuine, strong 140lb fighter of equal size and stature. His performance against Mitchell 6 months earlier was pretty destructive too...I agree with you though Golovkins performance against Canelo trumps those...who is the best fighter either guy has faced. I would rather focus on their overall body of work, which I think we agree is pretty close, just thought I'd address some of the points you made, which are interesting.

It is debatable...GGG has a more reliable chin, though Tszyus wasn't bad. Hurtado was a handful, after the rocky start Tszyu took over, not sure if life and death is an apt description. I think the age thing is neither here nor there...you have to look at their body of work. If GGG had pretty much done the same as Tszyu through their 20s and early 30s and then was still doing what he is now then I would agree it's a strong differentiator. As I said in a previous post, higher weight fighters last longer anyway, but yes you also have to give Golovkin a lot of credit for his last few years. My whole thing is yes he's great, but not as much as his fans and some media believe...and by the way here is another guy (Tszyu) who did more or less as much and so just trying to offer some perspective I think Golovkin left it late to move in the pros, but the age thing matters for one outstanding reason. The body takes longer and longer to recover as you progress through your 30s.Middles are generally done by 33,look at the shadow of Degale recently. The main thing is Tszyu was clearly beaten and stopped in hes prime by a decent but far from elite fighter, Golovkin fought well at an advanced age against a great fighter in hes only defeat. Like i said, the Judah win was probably more outstanding than any of Golovkins wins, although the draw with Canelo is close. I do agree with you that GGGs career has been disappointing and includes alot of time wasted on inferior opposition though. Some great fights couldve been made. I dont think it was down to lack of confidence though, the Pirog fight was signed and it was Pirog who pulled out and retired. What a fight that couldve been.

Tszyus win over Judah, in the context of the time, is probably better than GGGS win in everything but name over Canelo in the first fight. But Golovkin didnt have life and death with guys like Hurtado, and wasnt stopped mid prime by a guy like Philips. He also was beating Jacobs and splitting fights with Canelo at the same stage of career Tszyu was getting bashed up by Ricky Hatton. So its debatable. It is debatable...GGG has a more reliable chin, though Tszyus wasn't bad. Hurtado was a handful, after the rocky start Tszyu took over, not sure if life and death is an apt description. I think the age thing is neither here nor there...you have to look at their body of work. If GGG had pretty much done the same as Tszyu through their 20s and early 30s and then was still doing what he is now then I would agree it's a strong differentiator. As I said in a previous post, higher weight fighters last longer anyway, but yes you also have to give Golovkin a lot of credit for his last few years. My whole thing is yes he's great, but not as much as his fans and some media believe...and by the way here is another guy (Tszyu) who did more or less as much and so just trying to offer some perspective

Because Golovkin knew how to hype himself. I dunno about Golovkin being one of the greatest middleweights but he is a more skilled fighter than kosta tszyu. Anyway, his career went like I said it would, he never got a chance to shine in his prime. He is not a more skilled fighter than Tszyu...taking weight out of it, so relatively speaking...He's stronger, better chin, stamina, maybe IQ? Debatable. Tszyu was more skilled, technically better.

A lot of GGG diehards in this thread, the naive loyalists, actually believe GGG is shot. They’re not fans. GGG can still do great things at 168 and be champ. These are cheese grated fans. He's not shot but I was fully aware they would make that excuse, past his best? Yes for sure, but I just want to bring some reality and perspective to his career. I think the most apt description I can give is, just because a guy isn't as great as you think, doesn't mean he's not great

Golovkin has a funnier accent so he wins. Haha not sure about that, the Russian-Aussie was pretty ****ed

The fact he wasnt doing full training camps should tell you he was lazy as a pro, the skill he showed at the end of his amateur career was astounding, slowly under johnny lewis those skills were shown less often, as i said before, watch tszyu vs forrest on youtube, tszyu was shorter, had much less reach but absolutely dismantled forrest with evasion and countering I've posted the fight for you, scintillating performance

Based on what? Kostya's amateur career wasn't even close. He won the world championships once, and when he tried out for the Olympics he lost. Golovkin was what, 320-6? Something like that? As for resume, they're close because of the names on his resume, objectively though, it's highly debatable. Tsyu's best scalp is JCC, who fought in his last 12 rounder at the age of 38. Who else, Judah? His losses were emphatic. Golovkin has 1 loss on his record and 1 draw, with both being highly disputed - and with Canelo getting busted for PEDs between the fights. Unless Golovkin loses to an average fighter (Andrade) in the nast 2 years, he's better than Tsyu. Maybe the problem is you are wrong and don't know what you are talking about. GGG is vastly superior to Tszyu. Tszu was a good fighter while GGG is a great fighter. GGG scored 22 KOs in a row and mostly over top 10 contenders. He had 20 successful title defenses in a row. He has only lone loss that most viewers think he won. That's not myth. That's fact. Can Tszyu match any of this? Hell no. Not even close. Tszyu was stopped twice and he was completely done years before GGG who is still going strong at age 36. GGG would have an even better record if Sturm, Martinez, Saunders,Cotto and Eubank had been willing to fight him. What was Tszyu's best win? Loser Judah? And for that you rate him over GGG? GGG was better in every way. A better boxer, a harder puncher, took a punch better, a better record,you name it and GGG was better. He will always be rated far above Tszyu because he deserves to be. I'm going to have to strongly disagree here. GGG's amateur credentials are better. He won worlds and a silver medal at the olympics vs kostya who won gold at worlds and a bronze. GGG never ever got koed cold by a guy on the level of Vince phillips. The loss is a huge minus to kostya and it happened in his prime. GGG also never lost to a guy on the level of hatton past his prime. GGG past his prime got a controversial loss against one of the best p4p fighters. Kostya was good, but he was not on ggg's level. I will also argue that a past prime GGG beating danny was a better win than kostya beating a prime judah. Talking about skills, kostya had a better straight hand precision, but ggg had a better body attack, much much better defense, and a much more superior jab. Everyone knows that 320-6 record is BS, complete BS, its been proven on here numerous times, and is apart of this myth that is created around GGG being some ATG amateur. GGG won the worlds as a 21 year old and then silver in Athens as a 22 year old. Tszyu was 18 when he went to his one and only olympics. By the time he was 21 he hit his stride as an amateur he won the Europeans, the Goodwill games, and the World championships back to back in a dominant fashion. He finished 270-12 in a more competitive European amateur circuit. Had he not gone pro before Barcelona...he would have been a heavy favourite at light welterweight. As far as the pro stuff goes, already answered in other posts, losses don't make a resume, the overall body of work does. More importantly who you beat and how you beat them. For me Tszyu has done more against better competition in general, although its close. There is also no way a close either way type fight over Jacobs is better than a second round KO of Judah. Jacobs is overrated by GGG fans to make his resume look better, just like his fans used to overrate Lemieux. Jacobs is a world class fighter flirting with elite, but I've had GGG fans tell me he's better than Hopkins...laughable at best. Here is a direct comparison of them as amateur's, can you, after watching this, hand on heart tell me GGG was a better amateur? This is Tszyu's gold medal fight at the worlds against Vernon Forrest...an OUTSTANDING amateur in his own right and we all know what Forrest went on to do in the pro's too.

I'd probably give a slight edge to Tszyu because his resume has more depth and he was undisputed. He started out strong and got wins that were good like the vastly more experienced (though much smaller) LaPorte in his 4th fight, Bramble wasn't prime anymore and was losing some but he did get robbed vs. Carr (a top prospect then) and for Tszyu to utterly dominate with less than 10 fights and 18 months was impressive as were wins over Lopez and impressive and utterly dominant wins over Sanchez and Hernandez all prior to winning his first title. Rodriguez was a pretty good champion on a good run. I think his only loss in years was vs. Trinidad and Tszyu obliterated him. Bergman was a hot contender at the time too before Tszyu brutalized him. It definitely hurts his standing that he was stopped vs. Phillips there's no way around that but he then came back and went on a great run. Ruelas was on a hot streak and was a top contender and Tszyu absolutely ripped him apart. Hurtado was a damn good fighter too and Tszyu-Gonzalez was considered basically a toss-up and that was painfully one-sided. Tszyu was a decided underdog vs. Judah and in Mitchell II (because of Mitchell's form and Tszyu's injuries) and he iced them in no time. I remember online around those times people were high as hell on Zab and Tszyu wasn't given a chance and almost the same for Mitchell II. He surprised a lot of folks with those two and made a lot of folks eat their words. Leija, Tackie, Urkal all add depth to his resume and were worthy contenders. People need to remember 140 was considered one of the hot divisions and he basically dominated it for 10 years. Sure, none of his victims has gone down in history but sometimes that happens when you've got a dominant champion. I think Tszyu is just a more impressive fighter overall too but didn't get the same fanfare. Maybe because he was living in Australia and coming to America just to fight and said little to the press it was hard for him to make a big splash here and then he was also around at the time of other charismatic great fighters with big fanbases in America like the Heavyweights (Holyfield, Lewis, Tyson), Roy Jones, Felix Trinidad, Oscar De La Hoya etc; I doubt Golovkin or Canelo for that matter would be as big if they had to compete with that spotlight. Golovkin has been an excellent fighter there's no doubt about it but I think Tszyu as of now would stand as being more impressive but then again I am a huge Tszyu fan. Great post, its about where I'm at as far as Tszyu and GGG go. I'm not trying to tear Golovkin down, but I do feel what he has ACTUALLY accomplished doesn't live up to the reputation he has had since 2011. People have wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt and anoint him the 'great' one before he even started proving it...I've seen this in the past with other fighters, but this is the most extreme example in my time in boxing. He has proved himself elite in the last few years, knocking on the door of the Hall, but he isn't dominant at that level. I hear this argument of him being one of the greatest middleweights of all time, but I can honestly say there are middleweights in every era before his that would have given him the business. Just my opinion.

What exactly makes him a better pro??? Both have solid but not great reumes. I never saw GGG get KO'd not even stunned. Vince Phillips knocked a prime Tszyu the f-ck out. Exactly. GGG would never lose to a Vince Phillips type fighter in his prime, and not even now outside of his prime. Tszyu got schooled by Ricky hatton when he was 36 whilst golovkin dropped a highly controversial decision to canelo at 36 You can bring up the Vince Phillips thing, and I suppose it can count against Tszyu, it was Ring Magazines upset of the year for a reason. But if you look at Phillip's objectively he was a veteran, who was fast, could crack, and had a solid chin, a potential banana skin for any of the top guys. He was seen as the best gatekeeper/fringe guy for a reason. Maybe GGG doesn't lose to a guy like that, he has different attributes, one being a great chin, a more reliable chin, doesn't make him the better fighter, it just means he's less prone to an upset. We just won't know because Golovkin didn't fight anyone with a pulse until Ouma...that was prob a comparable fight to Phillip's, apart from Ouma was washed up by the time GGG got to him. As far as resumes go, which is where my argument is...Rodriguez, Ruelas, Hurtado, Chavez, Mitchell x 2, Judah, Gonzales, even Mayweather, are better wins than anything Golovkin did between 2011-2016, the majority of his title run. As ChrisJS said Tszyu's resume is deeper, the Judah win is the best win either guy has. Ok if you give the first Canelo fight to GGG than I would rank that above, but don't underestimate how good and dangerous an undefeated Judah was...Tszyu adjusted, zeroed in on Judah and took him OUT. Golovkin has yet to stop or dominate that level of opposition. The problem with assessing Golovkin is that he was already anointed p4p1 by many even before he fought Brook...this is where my angst comes from, not in all my years in boxing has someone got so much credit for stopping and dominating such an average run, it was based on myth and what they 'thought' might happen rather than physical evidence. Many people believed he would dominate and dismantle fighters the same way once he stepped up but we saw hints of the problems he'd face against Brook, and since then against Canelo and Jacobs. People want to talk about age, but he looked the same against Vanes. Fighters age at different rates and as a general rule of thumb (not always) heavier fighters age better than lighter fighters. Either way it would be unwise to compare Tszyu to Golovkin at 36. Madison have you actually watched these fights? I am skeptical because Tszyu didn't get schooled at all, the scorecards were extremely close, and he got warn down and stopped at the end of the 11th round. He outboxed Hatton for large periods. My main point is that...its arguable between them, I would take Tszyu, more skilful, better technically, faster, better one punch KO power. In terms of accomplishments, its pretty close at this stage I would say, yet the hype around GGG's 'greatness' is utterly out of proportion with what he has actually accomplished.

I’ve seen a number of his amateur fights. I agree his skill was excellent. I think he had fallen in love with his power but he was doing full 14 week training camps after the Phillips loss so I don’t think he was taking shortcuts there. He wasn't doing full camps before Phillips on all fights, his skill was second to none as an amateur, if you rely on your power and don't do the work required, I would consider that lazy

The fact he wasnt doing full training camps should tell you he was lazy as a pro, the skill he showed at the end of his amateur career was astounding, slowly under johnny lewis those skills were shown less often, as i said before, watch tszyu vs forrest on youtube, tszyu was shorter, had much less reach but absolutely dismantled forrest with evasion and countering I’ve seen a number of his amateur fights. I agree his skill was excellent. I think he had fallen in love with his power but he was doing full 14 week training camps after the Phillips loss so I don’t think he was taking shortcuts there.

I don’t think he got lazy as a pro for the most part. I think he’d fallen in love with his power and I think took some shortcuts before the Phillips fight probably because of his pending court case with Bill Mordey. When he came back after that loss he was very dedicated. Full three month training camps and worked really hard to become undisputed. Injuries unfortunately took the end of his prime. He had some career threatening injuries that mounted up and robbed him of some big defenses. The fact he wasnt doing full training camps should tell you he was lazy as a pro, the skill he showed at the end of his amateur career was astounding, slowly under johnny lewis those skills were shown less often, as i said before, watch tszyu vs forrest on youtube, tszyu was shorter, had much less reach but absolutely dismantled forrest with evasion and countering

Tszyu will go down as the better overall fighter. He has the better resume. Golovkin will fade, unfortunately. If he got that first Canelo win, maybe we would be looking at things differently. The fight was close(I thought he won), but most people went into it thinking Golovkin would easily KO Canelo - he did not do that. The second fight was close as well, but you saw Golovkin slip a little. The fierce KO artist of the middle weight division chose to box. It was not a good look for him. It's a shame, really. I think Golovkin had the tools to go down as one of the top middle weights, but he does not have the resume. He would need to a couple of more big wins to surpass Tszyu. Maybe a Charlo, but both Charlo stocks have taken a hit, or maybe a Jacobs victory if he beats Canelo(doubtful). But as it stands right now, Tszyu has the greater legacy.

Tszyu was very overrated. I think the Judah fight was a fluke. Zab would have beat Tszyu in a rematch. What a ridiculous comment. He was timing Judah with that punch. That's his signature punch.

I also have Tszyu down as a better puncher tbh, he stopped more championship level fighters. Yet he never had nearly the same hype and clout as GGG has had. I've never really understood it. Don't get me wrong he's a great fighter and has really proved himself over the past couple of years but his career and accomplishments have been vastly overrated, his p4p ranking normally inflated, in reality he's on the same level as the other top 154-160 lbers...he was never able to create the separation his fans, and followers promised. The Jacobs fight was nip and tuck, so we're both Canelo fights, and I'd imagine anyone else at that level it would be a similar story. Tszyu arguably beat better fighters in a more impressive fashion, but at the very least his resume stacks up against GGGs, yet one guy is seen by many as one of the greatest middleweights of all time and the other a solid HOFer at best There is a myth around GGG which makes people believe he is better than he is, I've never quite been able to put my finger on why I'm going to have to strongly disagree here. GGG's amateur credentials are better. He won worlds and a silver medal at the olympics vs kostya who won gold at worlds and a bronze. GGG never ever got koed cold by a guy on the level of Vince phillips. The loss is a huge minus to kostya and it happened in his prime. GGG also never lost to a guy on the level of hatton past his prime. GGG past his prime got a controversial loss against one of the best p4p fighters. Kostya was good, but he was not on ggg's level. I will also argue that a past prime GGG beating danny was a better win than kostya beating a prime judah. Talking about skills, kostya had a better straight hand precision, but ggg had a better body attack, much much better defense, and a much more superior jab.