Who is the absolute greatest between Ray Robinson and Roy Jones on there best night?

Well i look forward to our insight commentary h2h at some point with these match ups , i of course will be showing flaws and you'll counter with lost technical aspects ... i think it should actually be a documentary bc i will solidify my standing and you will do the same ... How about a 2019 aspect of old vs new ??? lol Im interested , its not about better or worse , but i stick to my belief of the Joshua era ,these guys are very hardto defeat !:boxing: Joshua has a lot going for him. :beerchug: I will pm you, I was not far from your neck of the woods recently.

No one in history would beat prime RJJ between 160-168, no one! I think Haggler has a good chance of beating him at 160

billeau2, It is an assumption that Roy was washed... there really is no proof. Even Tarver, when he laid back and let Roy feint him, did not do so well...What made Tarver succesful was his resolve to go get Roy. Roy never dealt with real pressure guys so we don't know how he would look. I mean it could be that he lost it and became hittable but we just don't know. what we do know is that when guys applied pressure to him he folded. Roy had a unique, unorthadox style that was built around split second timing, based upon his incredible athleticism. I've said many times that Roy either needed to retire early or change his style to compensate for his age. But he did neither and he paid a heavy price. By the time of the first Tarver fight, he was almost 35, and he'd fought 50 times across 5 weight classes. When he'd dropped back from HW he looked a completely different fighter. He'd burnt muscle in a 2 month period and he was absolutely exhausted after the mid way point. In the rematch, he was caught by a shot that in my opinion, he would have reacted to earlier in his career. Three other fighters who'd burnt muscle at an advanced age also suffered the same fate: Antonio Tarver said that he was devoid of energy against Bernard Hopkins. And Mackie Shilstone who'd helped Bernard to prepare for the fight, had said beforehand that he expected Tarver to be flat due to the weight loss from his role in the Rocky film. Chris Byrd also suffered the same fate against a B-C class fighter in Shaun George when he dropped back to LHW. He also said that he was devoid of energy and he'd taken the weight off too quickly. His reflexes and his punch resistance were visible different. Shaun George wasn't classed as a big puncher, yet he beat Byrd with absolute ease, despite Byrd being a former top 10 HW for a prolonged period of time. Chad Dawson also had a nightmare in camp in preparing to face Andre Ward. He too looked like a completely different fighter. Even though I'm a huge fan of Andre's, I can't give him huge credit for that win, as I've spoken to Chad's former trainer, John Scully regarding their ordeal. After his rematch loss to Tarver, you could see that Roy was hurting. He was embarrassed. He signed to fight Johnson just weeks after the loss which was a huge mistake. But in my honest opinion, he wanted to get back into the ring ASAP to try and eradicate the loss. But it was clear to me that he wasn't ready either mentally or physically. From what I've read, he just went through the motions in training. Glen jumped on him from the opening bell as he knew that Roy was damaged goods. So I firmly believe that by the time Roy had fought Glen, he'd lost the same split second reflexes and punch resistance that he'd possessed beforehand. Also, he'd been psychologically scarred by the Tarver knockout. So he was just a different fighter. He was gun shy and he had no answer to Glen. Yes, we have to give Glen huge credit. But we also have to be realistic. This was a guy who struggled 3 times with a guy like Clinton Woods. He bullied Roy for 9 rounds, knocked him cold with a temple shot, and then went and lost to Woods in their rubber match. Although I'm a great advocate of the old adage 'styles make fights' when a guy like Roy went from not having lost many rounds in a 15 year career, to not being able to win a single round of a guy like Glen Johnson, it was obvious to me that something was amiss. I was toying with putting this in a separate post: Lets talk about Glenn johnson for a moment: There is a sentiment that Roy must have been damaged goods to lose to a guy like the road warrior aka Glencoffe Johnson. I would encourage anyone to look at his fights, not his record. A lot of close fights went against him. Furthermore the guy was an excellent pressure fighter. We don't know how Roy would look against other excellent pressure fighters, because he didn't fight many of them. Toney was always going to have problems because while he can pressure, he likes to use skills and to counterpunch...YOu do not counter a guy as fast as Jones... Good luck trying to time him! As above. Yes, Glen was an excellent pressure fighter. But Roy looked a completely different fighter as soon as the bell had rung. I can't envisage Glen bullying and then knocking out any pre-HW version of Roy. When Ray mentions Hagler, we don't know how Jones would stay together when being forced around the ring by a guy as good a pressure fighter as Hagler. Ali fought a lot of pressure fighters as a supreme fast and athletic guy and had a fit against the smaller Frazier for a reason. Jones and Ali need some room to work. Marvin was a great fighter. I think he would have given Roy a great fight. But I also think that Roy's speed would have been a huge issue for him.

Ray's a great poster, and I always enjoy reading your posts even if I don't always agree with you. I love the fighters of the past and I like studying the history of the sport. Quite often, I get labelled as a nostalgia nut. I don't believe that I am, but that's what I've been accused of. Regarding Jake, I have enormous respect for him. He was a true warrior. Yes, he gave fighters nightmares with his relentless pressure and toughness. He just kept pouring forward. But we've got to be realistic here. Look at the size advantage Roy would have had. Look at the difference in reach. Look at the weight. Roy was weighing in as a SMW-LHW on fight night when he was at MW. Look at Roy's unorthadox skill set, his athleticism and his incredible speed. Look at his defence. It was unconventional based on his great reflexes, but it was very effective. He was very hard to hit clean and often. Look at the power he had in either hand. Roy was a H2H monster at the weight. We're not looking at his resume. We know that due to circumstances he didn't have a prolonged period at the weight. But H2H, at his best, he was a beast. Although Jake was a warrior, he was smaller and hittable. He was also prone to cuts due his style and the number of fights he'd had. You saw Ray punish him in their fights, especially the 'St Valentines massacre' so what do you think Roy would have done with him. Roy would have been a huge favourite. Pressure and a chin wouldn't have been enough to have beaten Roy at MW. Roy's nemesis would have been a guy like Nunn, who had the size, the skills and the speed, from a southpaw stance. That doesn't mean that Nunn was better than Jake, but from Roy's perspective it would have been a much tougher challenge stylistically. Regarding the defeat to Glen Johnson, Roy was finished as a top level fighter at that point. You can't take any evidence from that fight. Glen had a gun shy version of Roy stood in front of him, who'd just been iced by Tarver a few months ago. A pre HW version of Roy shouldn't have had too much difficulty in beating Glen. It is an assumption that Roy was washed... there really is no proof. Even Tarver, when he laid back and let Roy feint him, did not do so well...What made Tarver succesful was his resolve to go get Roy. Roy never dealt with real pressure guys so we don't know how he would look. I mean it could be that he lost it and became hittable but we just don't know. what we do know is that when guys applied pressure to him he folded. I was toying with putting this in a separate post: Lets talk about Glenn johnson for a moment: There is a sentiment that Roy must have been damaged goods to lose to a guy like the road warrior aka Glencoffe Johnson. I would encourage anyone to look at his fights, not his record. A lot of close fights went against him. Furthermore the guy was an excellent pressure fighter. We don't know how Roy would look against other excellent pressure fighters, because he didn't fight many of them. Toney was always going to have problems because while he can pressure, he likes to use skills and to counterpunch...YOu do not counter a guy as fast as Jones... Good luck trying to time him! When Ray mentions Hagler, we don't know how Jones would stay together when being forced around the ring by a guy as good a pressure fighter as Hagler. Ali fought a lot of pressure fighters as a supreme fast and athletic guy and had a fit against the smaller Frazier for a reason. Jones and Ali need some room to work.

Would never speak for Ray regarding this fight, as that would be the equivalent of the stable boy offering to read the Gettysburgh for Lincoln, but there is a natural reason I can think of as to why La Motta would beat Roy. While there is no precident for Robinson fighting a guy like Roy, Roy showed a real weakness against guys who pressure consistantly. It is only a possibility that this is because he lost some of his skills in his twilight. In other words, when he was pressured he was beat. La Motta was a tremendous pressure fighter. He did not throw as much leather as Hank Armstrong but set traps, was relentless and actually...if one watches Glen Johnson against Jones we get a sense of the blue print La Motta would use. la Motta also had a great chin, one of the best, so Jones could not conceviably get him out of there. Ray's a great poster, and I always enjoy reading your posts even if I don't always agree with you. I love the fighters of the past and I like studying the history of the sport. Quite often, I get labelled as a nostalgia nut. I don't believe that I am, but that's what I've been accused of. Regarding Jake, I have enormous respect for him. He was a true warrior. Yes, he gave fighters nightmares with his relentless pressure and toughness. He just kept pouring forward. But we've got to be realistic here. Look at the size advantage Roy would have had. Look at the difference in reach. Look at the weight. Roy was weighing in as a SMW-LHW on fight night when he was at MW. Look at Roy's unorthadox skill set, his athleticism and his incredible speed. Look at his defence. It was unconventional based on his great reflexes, but it was very effective. He was very hard to hit clean and often. Look at the power he had in either hand. Roy was a H2H monster at the weight. We're not looking at his resume. We know that due to circumstances he didn't have a prolonged period at the weight. But H2H, at his best, he was a beast. Although Jake was a warrior, he was smaller and hittable. He was also prone to cuts due his style and the number of fights he'd had. You saw Ray punish him in their fights, especially the 'St Valentines massacre' so what do you think Roy would have done with him. Roy would have been a huge favourite. Pressure and a chin wouldn't have been enough to have beaten Roy at MW. Roy's nemesis would have been a guy like Nunn, who had the size, the skills and the speed, from a southpaw stance. That doesn't mean that Nunn was better than Jake, but from Roy's perspective it would have been a much tougher challenge stylistically. Regarding the defeat to Glen Johnson, Roy was finished as a top level fighter at that point. You can't take any evidence from that fight. Glen had a gun shy version of Roy stood in front of him, who'd just been iced by Tarver a few months prior. Any pre-HW version of Roy shouldn't have had too much difficulty in beating Glen.

Ray, I always enjoy reading your posts. It's always a pleasure as you've got great knowledge. But in my honest opinion, you're being very biased here, as you obviously have a great admiration of Ray. You're being very defensive. Again, if you put both Ray and Roy under the microscope, then Ray comes out on top. Again, I have no issue with anyone who thinks that Ray was the better fighter, with a better resume. But the TS was asking who looked greater in their primes. Well, it's a tough question, because even though Roy wasn't as skilled as Ray in a conventional sense, he looked just about unbeatable in his peak at SMW. Roy only stayed at MW for a short period, because by the time he'd broke free from his father, he was desperate for the big fights, and had the opportunity to fight Toney. Regarding H2H fights with the guys you've mentioned, I'd have to have favoured Roy over them. Again, he was huge at the weight, and his incredible speed coupled with his power and his skills, would have caused those guys huge problems. I really can't see how Jake would have beaten Roy. Would never speak for Ray regarding this fight, as that would be the equivalent of the stable boy offering to read the Gettysburgh for Lincoln, but there is a natural reason I can think of as to why La Motta would beat Roy. While there is no precident for Robinson fighting a guy like Roy, Roy showed a real weakness against guys who pressure consistantly. It is only a possibility that this is because he lost some of his skills in his twilight. In other words, when he was pressured he was beat. La Motta was a tremendous pressure fighter. He did not throw as much leather as Hank Armstrong but set traps, was relentless and actually...if one watches Glen Johnson against Jones we get a sense of the blue print La Motta would use. la Motta also had a great chin, one of the best, so Jones could not conceviably get him out of there.

I think ppl are mixing up a actual fight between the two . Looking at greatest would go to SRR but an actual fight ? RJJ is to much all around ! The best poster on these subjects billeau2 could go into details even if he disagrees ! I have been really busy and wish I could be more regular. There are in a match up like this, a tremendous amount of variables to consider. Length of boute, the considerations like how many times a fighter fought, the best weight, etc. There are some things that I would think might loom large here: It can not be said often enough that a 15 rounder with all the trimmings is not the same as a 12 rounder. Robinson could become the stalker, because I am guessing he would not try to outbox Roy. We will never know how susceptable Roy was to power at his best because he didn't get touched up. So Jugs I can't agree or disagree about this, lol. There is really no precident I can think of for this fight... I can't think if an opponent Robinson fought that is similar to Jones:doh:

It's funny how the word "athleticism" is used to pad Jones's boxing success because of a lack of "natural boxing skills"! Sugar Ray is the greatest athlete to box ever! An all around athlete and dancer and a true pure boxer with power in both hands and is willing to fight when he believes it's his best outcome. To compare a fellow like Jones to the greatest fighter who ever lived is ridiculous. Monzon, Hagler, Cerdan, LaMotta, Greb, Robinson and others all beat Jones! Jones is known as a light heavy not a middleweight, he fought 19 middleweight bouts out of 76 fights!!! 35 bouts as a Light heavyweight! Some cruiser a few at heavy! Ray does everything better than Jones and his record speaks for itself. Fighting champs and contenders far in to his senior years and winning and losing a few but never being stopped. Ray Ray, I always enjoy reading your posts. It's always a pleasure as you've got great knowledge. But in my honest opinion, you're being very biased here, as you obviously have a great admiration of Ray. You're being very defensive. Again, if you put both Ray and Roy under the microscope, then Ray comes out on top. Again, I have no issue with anyone who thinks that Ray was the better fighter, with a better resume. But the TS was asking who looked greater in their primes. Well, it's a tough question, because even though Roy wasn't as skilled as Ray in a conventional sense, he looked just about unbeatable in his peak at SMW. Roy only stayed at MW for a short period, because by the time he'd broke free from his father, he was desperate for the big fights, and had the opportunity to fight Toney. Regarding H2H fights with the guys you've mentioned, I'd have to have favoured Roy over them. Again, he was huge at the weight, and his incredible speed coupled with his power and his skills, would have caused those guys huge problems. I really can't see how Jake would have beaten Roy.

It's funny how the word "athleticism" is used to pad Jones's boxing success because of a lack of "natural boxing skills"! Sugar Ray is the greatest athlete to box ever! An all around athlete and dancer and a true pure boxer with power in both hands and is willing to fight when he believes it's his best outcome. To compare a fellow like Jones to the greatest fighter who ever lived is ridiculous. Monzon, Hagler, Cerdan, LaMotta, Greb, Robinson and others all beat Jones! Jones is known as a light heavy not a middleweight, he fought 19 middleweight bouts out of 76 fights!!! 35 bouts as a Light heavyweight! Some cruiser a few at heavy! Ray does everything better than Jones and his record speaks for itself. Fighting champs and contenders far in to his senior years and winning and losing a few but never being stopped. Ray

"But his peak was at WW."........................not true! If you look at his entire career his excellence is also during his Middleweight time. By 1947 Robinson was fighting above the Welter limit often and by 1948 Ray went back to 147 ONCE!HIs career began in 1940 so his prime was 8 years out of 25? WRONG! He fought until 1965 (15 times) so to think his prime ended in 1948 and was less a fighter for the next 17 years is ignorance! Winning and losing to folks Fullmer & Basilio in the late 50's is something current day fighters never accomplish. The closest fighter to accomplish wins towards the end of their career over champions and top contenders would be Duran. Ray Relax. I'm a huge fan myself. Most people acknowledge that Ray was at his absolute peak at WW. That of course does not mean he wasn't still great at MW. And we know that, because we have enough footage at MW to see that. But in those first 8 years, he'd fought many times. Fighting the likes of Jake, Fulmer and Basillio gave us great, entertaining fights. Yes, it was a huge achievement. But fighting Roy at MW would have been a huge task. Now if Roy had fought as many times as Ray, there's no way of telling what shape he'd have been in even in his 20's. Because we know that Roy's game was based around his unique athletiscism. And if he'd have fought every 3-4 weeks instead 3-4 times per year, he could have faded very quickly. There's no way of knowing. All we can do is look at the best versions of each guy from the footage that's available. And if we do that, we can see that Roy would have been a real handful for him. Because he was a huge MW with special gifts.

"But his peak was at WW."........................not true! If you look at his entire career his excellence is also during his Middleweight time. By 1947 Robinson was fighting above the Welter limit often and by 1948 Ray went back to 147 ONCE!HIs career began in 1940 so his prime was 8 years out of 25? WRONG! He fought until 1965 (15 times) so to think his prime ended in 1948 and was less a fighter for the next 17 years is ignorance! Winning and losing to folks Fullmer & Basilio in the late 50's is something current day fighters never accomplish. The closest fighter to accomplish wins towards the end of their career over champions and top contenders would be Duran. Ray

"Sugar Ray Robinson was definitely too small to compete against Roy. He was a great fighter in his era, but it's impossible to know how he would be in today's era"........................rubbish! Robinson 5'11" 160 Jones 5'11" 160 Jones stopped 5 times in 65 bouts. Robinson stopped once in 200 bouts against the Light heavy weight World Champion. Stopped by heat exhaustion ahead on all three cards! It's easier to tell which fighter can do well in all era's if you know what the hell your watching! If you can't tell you don't know! Go read a record and compare common opponents if thats all you go by! Ray I think that anyone saying that Ray couldn't have competed against Roy, is ignorant. But I'd have to have favoured Roy in a H2H fight at MW. But that doesn't mean that Ray wasn't the better overall fighter on a P4P basis.

Because it would indicate that Jones would not have to commit in his attempts, that he could get off his shots and get out of there against a guy who nobody could come close to doing such a thing. Robinson could knock you out...not just hit you going backwards. It is more believable if people want to believe that Jones could somehow elude Ray Robinson... I don't believe that either, but I could see an argument, something like this: "jones could as they often do in chess and in Japanese combat, go for a draw... In Chess not attacking, in Sword combat Iechue, or death by mutual cut...so when an inferior opponent knew they were over matched this was an ideal strategy...In similar fashion Jones could avoid Robinson, for 12 rounds, maybe 15..." Again I don't believe it, but it is not entirely specious...On the other hand saying that Jones could catch Robinson now and then and avoid a counter...no way! I'm confused here. I've absolutely no issue whatsoever with anyone who thinks that Ray was a better P4P fighter than Roy. At his absolute best, he was classed as the perfect fighter. A more complete fighter than Roy. But his peak was at WW. Although he was still a great fighter at MW, we've seen his fights at the weight. At MW, Roy was a beast, weighing in as a SMW-LHW on fight night. Why on earth couldn't Roy have beaten him at MW? Why is it a fantasy to think that Roy could have won? Again, we've seen Ray's fights with Basillio and Jake etc. As great as he was, those guys found him and beat him. In a H2H fight at MW, I'd have to favour Roy. Ray wasn't a mythical figure at MW who couldn't be hit.

Both Ray Robinson and Ray Leonard were better fighters than jones...higher competition by far and were never knocked out cold in there career...jones was 4 times

"Sugar Ray Robinson was definitely too small to compete against Roy. He was a great fighter in his era, but it's impossible to know how he would be in today's era"........................rubbish! Robinson 5'11" 160 Jones 5'11" 160 Jones stopped 5 times in 65 bouts. Robinson stopped once in 200 bouts against the Light heavy weight World Champion. Stopped by heat exhaustion ahead on all three cards! It's easier to tell which fighter can do well in all era's if you know what the hell your watching! If you can't tell you don't know! Go read a record and compare common opponents if thats all you go by! Ray

Why wouldn’t people believe it? It doesn’t mean Roy was better in a P4P sense. Because it would indicate that Jones would not have to commit in his attempts, that he could get off his shots and get out of there against a guy who nobody could come close to doing such a thing. Robinson could knock you out...not just hit you going backwards. It is more believable if people want to believe that Jones could somehow elude Ray Robinson... I don't believe that either, but I could see an argument, something like this: "jones could as they often do in chess and in Japanese combat, go for a draw... In Chess not attacking, in Sword combat Iechue, or death by mutual cut...so when an inferior opponent knew they were over matched this was an ideal strategy...In similar fashion Jones could avoid Robinson, for 12 rounds, maybe 15..." Again I don't believe it, but it is not entirely specious...On the other hand saying that Jones could catch Robinson now and then and avoid a counter...no way!

Again, there’s more than enough footage of Ray to see how great he was. It’s enough. You don’t have to agree with people who think he was the GOAT. That’s very subjective. But he was the complete fighter. Roy wasn’t at his absolute peak at LHW, but yes, Montell caused him problems. But he was a 180 plus pound LHW who fought nothing like Marvin, and although he casused Roy problems, we saw what followed. Marvin was one of the greatest MW’s of all time. But he wouldn’t have just been able to have walked him down and smoked him. Again, Roy’s speed would have caused him huge issues. You saw against Ray, that that sort of movement would always have been problematic to him. And yes, I know he was faded then, but so was Ray. Griffin was about to be stopped in the first fight, and definitely was stopped in the 2nd fight (obviously). Regardless, they fought at Light Heavyweight. Not middleweight, not super middleweight, this was Roy's 3rd weightclass. You're comparing a fight between two much heavier men. Griffin was a natural Light Heavyweight who fought there his entire career. Griffin also beat James Toney (well, I thought it was a very close fight) in the fight prior to Roy at LHW. Griffin was no slouch/bum. Hagler is an ATG, but he definitely would have been fighting at 154 in today's era. He'd be a small middleweight, and I doubt he would absorb punches the same from a bigger and probably the hardest puncher he'd ever fought. Sugar Ray Robinson was definitely too small to compete against Roy. He was a great fighter in his era, but it's impossible to know how he would be in today's era. James Toney and Bernard Hopkins are better fighters than anyone Robinson ever fought (and probably would have been bigger than them all).

But honestly how many Robinson fights have you watched from start to finish? I've seen documentaries, highlights, read press clippings and parts of books that speak on him but have never seen a complete fight. Of course all I've seen and read says he was the greatest ever but it's hard when I haven't seen him full prime. Just reverse the roles imagine there was little footage of RJJ in the 90's.. This is why in fantasy fights I don't go back that far. stay as current as possible. Hagler vs RJJ at 160 can be studied fully because we have all the footage we need. Hagler's titanium skull would absorb Roy's punches. but I see Roy being walked down to the ropes and smoked out. Marvin was a machine. I always go back to the first Griffin fight because that was prime Roy against the best prime opponent he faced in the 90's. Roy was getting countered, walked down and pinned on the ropes. Again, there’s more than enough footage of Ray to see how great he was. It’s enough. You don’t have to agree with people who think he was the GOAT. That’s very subjective. But he was the complete fighter. Roy wasn’t at his absolute peak at LHW, but yes, Montell caused him problems. But he was a 180 plus pound LHW who fought nothing like Marvin, and although he casused Roy problems, we saw what followed. Marvin was one of the greatest MW’s of all time. But he wouldn’t have just been able to have walked him down and smoked him. Again, Roy’s speed would have caused him huge issues. You saw against Ray, that that sort of movement would always have been problematic to him. And yes, I know he was faded then, but so was Ray.

We have enough footage of Ray when he was just past his prime at MW, to know how great he must have been at WW in his absolute prime. And he already looked great in that footage. Roy’s absolute prime was at SMW. Of course, anybody can be beaten. Nobody is invincible. But I certainly couldn’t have favoured anyone over Roy at that weight. It would only be up at LHW, where I’d start to look at guys like Charles etc. But that was Roy’s 3rd weight class. At MW, I don’t see how you can be so confident that Marvin would have beaten the brakes off of Roy. Roy’s speed and unorthodox style would have caused him huge issues. Also, Marvin used to weigh in as low as 157 in the days of same day weigh-ins, whereas Roy was huge at the weight. Today, it would have been like a WW-JMW fighting a MW. But honestly how many Robinson fights have you watched from start to finish? I've seen documentaries, highlights, read press clippings and parts of books that speak on him but have never seen a complete fight. Of course all I've seen and read says he was the greatest ever but it's hard when I haven't seen him full prime. Just reverse the roles imagine there was little footage of RJJ in the 90's.. This is why in fantasy fights I don't go back that far. stay as current as possible. Hagler vs RJJ at 160 can be studied fully because we have all the footage we need. Hagler's titanium skull would absorb Roy's punches. but I see Roy being walked down to the ropes and smoked out. Marvin was a machine. I always go back to the first Griffin fight because that was prime Roy against the best prime opponent he faced in the 90's. Roy was getting countered, walked down and pinned on the ropes.

Roy didn't have fundamentals or a chin? Smh. It’s a popular thing to say that Roy had no chin.. Roy had a good chin just like Lennox Lewis had a good chin but casuals would say otherwise. H2H Roy would fkin destroy Robinson.