Punching power is overrated whilst offensive skills are underrated for KO artists

No problem, we'll agree to disagree. Fair enough!

I disagree! I don't think there is much, if any difference in punching power between them. If Andre Ward were to have the offensive skills of GGG, he would have a similar KO record as well in my opinion. It's more down to the lack of technique, rather than raw physical punching power which is the cause of Andre Ward having fewer knockouts as far as I'm concerned. No problem, we'll agree to disagree.

Ricardo Mayorga dropped his hands & stuck his chin out and let Shane Mosley (in both fights), Vernon Forest (both fights), and Felix Trinidad get multiple free shots on his chin..... didn’t budge. I've seen 'em - of course, but he was ready and waiting for the punches.. that ain't what I'm talking about. What I'm arguing is that super chiny guys (like Khan for instance) generally get KTFO cos they're so busy commiting to their sh1t that they ain't watching the punches coming back. As they say... it's the punches you don't see coming... Similarly guys who seem to have cast iron chins... Golovkin for instance or say Floyd (who's been caught with a few over the years despite his exceptional defense) are the guys who are always watching for the incoming fire and almost always ready when it lands... it's less about having some kind of freakishly tough mandible and more about knowing what the opponents options are and making sure you don't over commit.

Yes, I will watch that fight and put what you wrote to the test. For sure! It's not remotely competitive but it's fascinating like a slow motion train wreck. Larry's jab has to be one of the best ever in boxing. It won him a lot of fights.

Yes. Punching power and chininess - two things which are both very much more to do with skills than some innate natural gift (or curse). Basically anyone who is trained to punch and has decent technique should be able to knock out pretty much any guy of similar size given a few free shots against an unprepared chin. Paulie could do it - hell, even I could do it and I can't punch for ****. Similarly any guy who closes his eyes and sticks his chin out to allow another fighter to give him his best shot will get KTFO in short order - I don't give a fuck if his chin's supposed to made of adamantium. What's special about guys who can consistently KO other fighters who are trying not to be KOd is the ability to create the openings and land the shots with sufficient power without leaving themselves so open that they get KTFO themselves. Ricardo Mayorga dropped his hands & stuck his chin out and let Shane Mosley (in both fights), Vernon Forest (both fights), and Felix Trinidad get multiple free shots on his chin..... didn’t budge.

Punchers are born not made, thick bone density gives you heavy hands but of course you need technique to go with that Have you got any evidence that bone density plays much of a part to punching power of a knockout artist? To me, there isn't a significant difference in punching power that a knockout artist like Gennady Golovkin can generate, compared to someone who isn't a knockout artist like Andre Ward. In terms of the raw ability to generate x amount of power, the difference is negligible. The main point is that both can generate SUFFICIENT power to KO majority of their opponents. However, the main factor as to why a KO artist like Gennady Golovkin consistently wins by knockout, is down to superior offensive skills. He is able to better maximize the power he generates, due to using better technique required to apply as much of his body weight as possible into his punches. In addition, other offensive abilities that I've mentioned are more of a factor than raw KO power in winning bouts by KO for a knockout artist.

1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Maybe, Andre has been able to stop 2 elite fighters in spite of being feather fisted. Even if we transferred all of GGGs offensive skills to Ward, he wouldn't punch as hard as GGG. I disagree! I don't think there is much, if any difference in punching power between them. If Andre Ward were to have the offensive skills of GGG, he would have a similar KO record as well in my opinion. It's more down to the lack of technique, rather than raw physical punching power which is the cause of Andre Ward having fewer knockouts as far as I'm concerned.

I think the Average Boxing Fans/Casual or whatever, OVERRATE POWER and make it the End All Be All. First thing people look at is KO % on Boxrec :nonono: You can tell when someone is a Casual or Knowledge is a extremely limited when it comes to boxing because the first then they say is "Knockout!" "Power!" I agree with this. I also think defensive skills or 'slickness' is overrated because too many people associate 'boxing skills' with only 'defensive' or 'evasive' skills. People seem to forget or overlook the fact that knockouts also require boxing skills too (offensive skills). Yes, casual fans seem to mostly associate knockouts with raw punching power. They seem to not notice or are unfamiliar with offensive skills of a knockout artist. It is a shame that such is the case! Ultimately, I believe punching power is overrated. I don't believe there is much, if any difference in raw punching power a knockout artist like GGG can POTENTIALLY generate, compared to the punching power someone who isn't a knockout artist like Andre Ward can POTENTIALLY generate. To me, there is very little difference between the power generating potential of any pro elite boxers that are of a similar size. The ones who win more of their bouts by knockout, is more down to them having better offensive skills than down to them having significantly more punching power generating potential. You can have two electric motors with the same power output. However, one of them will be capable of enabling a car to move faster than the other. Not because of raw power, but because of other distinct factors.:hitit:

You will have to watch the fight to determine that. I thought he landed enough flush punches to KO most fighters. Yes, I will watch that fight and put what you wrote to the test. For sure!

Greatest? No. He doesnt have stoppage wins over high enough level opposition. Im on record saying I think he is the hardest puncher ever though. In terms of raw force. Just the size, technique and explosiveness together must be unreal. The problem he has is his cautiousness, and the lack of a diverse skillset. When faced with intelligent movement for example, he cant establish his jab and cant land his power. Thats why he looked great vs static AJ and Pulev, but not so vs Jennings and Fury. Actually, Wladimir Klitschko has some of the most impressive knockout records / feats in the history of heavyweight boxing. As in, some of his records are so unique / special, that they are unmatched by any past heavyweight. For example, he has: 1) the highest knockout percentage in the heavyweight division's history in world championship fights. 2) the highest knockout quantity against previously unbeaten / never knocked out opponents. 3) The highest quantity of wins + knockouts against most styles of opponents (southpaws, counter punchers, pressure fighters and etc.). 4) Average knockout victims, heavier than any other past heavyweight in history. 5) More OVERALL wins + knockouts than any other past heavyweight in history. 6) Excluding Mike Tyson, knocked out / defeated more heavier than self opponents than any other past heavyweight. 7) Has more knockout victories in later rounds (after the 6th round) than any other past heavyweight. In other words, his knockout record at modern heavyweight (where he and his opponents weigh 200 pounds or above) is OVERALL, better than any past heavyweight. If you claim Wladimir Klitschko doesn't have enough stoppage wins over high enough level opposition, then nobody at heavyweight boxing's history at the very least do. Since Wlad has the best / most knockout feats against high level opposition than any past heavyweight in history. Despite his supposed 'cautiousness', he still has some of the quickest knockouts (when comparing his performance against the same caliber of opposition and opponents of a similar weight as other knockout artists at heavyweight) in heavyweight boxing history. Despite his supposed 'lack of diverse skillset'. He is a boxer that has lost fewer rounds than any other heavyweight champion in history. In fact, he is a boxer that has lost fewer rounds than nearly any other boxer in any weight division during his era. His defense is as good, if not better than Floyd Mayweather Jr's (he gets hit as less or lesser) and has the greatest overall knockout feats in history of the heavyweight division and one of the greatest feats when compared to the feats produced in any weight division. Meaning, not only is he the greatest defensive boxer in history of heavyweight division and one of the best out of any weight division, he also has one of the best offense. It's ridiculous to criticize Wladimir Klitschko as someone who has a weakness against Tyson Fury's or Bryant Jenning's style when he was near the age of 40 against both. Nearly every past heavyweight champions who were the best of their eras were losing as well by the time they reached Wladimir Klitschko's age when he lost against Fury. In fact, many were losing against lesser opposition than Fury at a much younger age, such as Mike Tyson at age 35 against Danny Williams and Kevin Mcbride. Despite losing at an old age to the young, upcoming boxers, Wlad still did a lot better against such opponents than most of the past heavyweight champions did against similar caliber or inferior level of opposition. Wladimir Klitschko fought and demolished Chris Byrd twice, who has better movement than both Tyson Fury and Bryant Jennings. Meaning, it's not the style of Jennings and Fury that was the cause of him having that much struggles, but the deterioration of his boxing skills through aging. If he already proved that he can defeat boxers who are intelligent and have good movement when he was young, then him failing against the same style at an older age is more down to age than him having any special weakness against such a style.

I think the Average Boxing Fans/Casual or whatever, OVERRATE POWER and make it the End All Be All. First thing people look at is KO % on Boxrec :nonono: You can tell when someone is a Casual or Knowledge is a extremely limited when it comes to boxing because the first then they say is "Knockout!" "Power!" same thing with handspeed. You got guys always talking about fighters like khan, haye, and boner like they are super skilled because they have fast hands. They aren't.

I think the Average Boxing Fans/Casual or whatever, OVERRATE POWER and make it the End All Be All. First thing people look at is KO % on Boxrec :nonono: You can tell when someone is a Casual or Knowledge is a extremely limited when it comes to boxing because the first then they say is "Knockout!" "Power!"

The thing is, when two boxers are roughly the same size (in weight), then both will have sufficient punching power to KO each other. It often comes down to these following offensive skills that I've already mentioned: 1) Better power punching technique / mechanics. 2) Better power punching accuracy. 3) Better power punching timing. 4) Better ability to set up knockout punches. 5) Better ability to apply pressure and cut the ring off. It's not a question of raw power that two boxers can generate using their body weight, but the question of if they are throwing punches with the appropriate technique to maximize their power, in addition to being able to land punches properly. For example, a punch that is thrown with someone's entire body weight moving forward, that lands flush on the opponent's chin whilst they've just moved directly into the punch (AKA Marquez KO 4 Pacquiao) is going to score a knockout, 9/10 times, assuming both boxers are roughly the same size, irrespective of the boxer's punch resistance / chin. There are exceptions of course. For example, a much lighter boxer like Manny Pacquiao may fail to KO a much heavier opponent in Antonio Margarito, even with those perfect punches. However, I'm referring to boxers who are mainly the same size. In the case of Larry Holmes vs Tex Cobb, I don't think it was Larry Holme's punching power that was the cause of him not being able to get the KO. To me, it was more down to his lack of 'offensive skills'. Those questions need to be asked: 1) Did Larry Holmes throw his punches with the most appropriate / suitable punching technique so that he can generate maximum force on his punches from his body weight? 2) Did Larry Holmes land those punches with the best technique on the most appropriate spots on Tex Cobb's body, such as the chin? 3) Did Larry Holmes land his punches on Tex Cobb's body with perfect timing, where Tex Cobb was forced to absorb something close to 100% of the punching power from Larry Holmes? So again, very rarely does it come down to a lack of 'punching power' when a boxer fails to KO an opponent of his own size, but mostly a lack of 'offensive skills'. Of course, there are boxers who are naturally more powerful with their punches. Meaning, they can not only KO their opponents, but cause more damage with their blows. However, pretty much every boxer o has the potential in their body to generate the punching power required to KO their opponents that are of a similar size (in weight). You will have to watch the fight to determine that. I thought he landed enough flush punches to KO most fighters.

So would you say that Wladimir Klitschko is one of, if not the greatest punchers in history. His KO percentage against top 10 ranked opposition, previously unbeaten opposition, previously never knocked out opposition and etc is higher overall than any past modern heavyweight (boxers competing against opponents weighing 200 pounds whilst weighing 200 pounds themselves)? In fact, Wladimir Klitschko's KO record may just be the greatest out of any boxer in history of any weight division. Greatest? No. He doesnt have stoppage wins over high enough level opposition. Im on record saying I think he is the hardest puncher ever though. In terms of raw force. Just the size, technique and explosiveness together must be unreal. The problem he has is his cautiousness, and the lack of a diverse skillset. When faced with intelligent movement for example, he cant establish his jab and cant land his power. Thats why he looked great vs static AJ and Pulev, but not so vs Jennings and Fury.

What do you mean? Punchers are born not made, thick bone density gives you heavy hands but of course you need technique to go with that

However, don't you think Gennady Golovkin outclasses Andre Ward in many departments related to 'offensive skills?'. For example: 1) GGG has better power punching technique / mechanics. 2) GGG has the better ability to set up knockout punches. 3) GGG has the superior timing and accuracy to land his KO punches. These are all attributes / skills which Golovkin is superior than Andre Ward. Now, suppose we transfer all of those same skills to Andre Ward whilst Andre Ward still remains the same weight, wouldn't he be punching even harder than GGG, considering he is heavier than GGG? 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Maybe, Andre has been able to stop 2 elite fighters in spite of being feather fisted. Even if we transferred all of GGGs offensive skills to Ward, he wouldn't punch as hard as GGG.

Power is a nice cherry on top. Speed on the other hand excels your lvl by improving every facet of your game. Great speed is like boxing with cheats enabled, the greatest boxers were usually speed demons, its a huge advantage. With power there will always be guys who you cant ko because they are too tough or guys that you cant get to (another thing speed helps with) without sacrificing your power unless you want to lose a decision, and its not nearly as important as a solid workrate, defense and in general well rounded elite skills. What you wrote is true. However, the point of this thread I created was that the knockout artists such as GGG, Sergey Kovalev, Artur Beterbiev and etc. What are the main abilities which allow them to consistently win by knockout? Is it raw punching power alone, special to boxers that are not KO artists? Or is it more down to other offensive skills which I've mentioned?

Punching power is a big advantage. I don't prescribe to the theory any boxer can KO another if the land the right shot. Big power and a good chin are huge advantages. Larry Holmes vs Tex Cobb. Larry and outstanding boxer could not KO Cobb. Cobb's chin was too good and Larry didn't hit hard enough to knock him out. It was a one sided beating but no KO. I agree that to have a high KO ratio requires skill as well as pure power. Yes offensive fighters don't get the credit they deserve but don't underestimate how important power is. The thing is, when two boxers are roughly the same size (in weight), then both will have sufficient punching power to KO each other. It often comes down to these following offensive skills that I've already mentioned: 1) Better power punching technique / mechanics. 2) Better power punching accuracy. 3) Better power punching timing. 4) Better ability to set up knockout punches. 5) Better ability to apply pressure and cut the ring off. It's not a question of raw power that two boxers can generate using their body weight, but the question of if they are throwing punches with the appropriate technique to maximize their power, in addition to being able to land punches properly. For example, a punch that is thrown with someone's entire body weight moving forward, that lands flush on the opponent's chin whilst they've just moved directly into the punch (AKA Marquez KO 4 Pacquiao) is going to score a knockout, 9/10 times, assuming both boxers are roughly the same size, irrespective of the boxer's punch resistance / chin. There are exceptions of course. For example, a much lighter boxer like Manny Pacquiao may fail to KO a much heavier opponent in Antonio Margarito, even with those perfect punches. However, I'm referring to boxers who are mainly the same size. In the case of Larry Holmes vs Tex Cobb, I don't think it was Larry Holme's punching power that was the cause of him not being able to get the KO. To me, it was more down to his lack of 'offensive skills'. Those questions need to be asked: 1) Did Larry Holmes throw his punches with the most appropriate / suitable punching technique so that he can generate maximum force on his punches from his body weight? 2) Did Larry Holmes land those punches with the best technique on the most appropriate spots on Tex Cobb's body, such as the chin? 3) Did Larry Holmes land his punches on Tex Cobb's body with perfect timing, where Tex Cobb was forced to absorb something close to 100% of the punching power from Larry Holmes? So again, very rarely does it come down to a lack of 'punching power' when a boxer fails to KO an opponent of his own size, but mostly a lack of 'offensive skills'. Of course, there are boxers who are naturally more powerful with their punches. Meaning, they can not only KO their opponents, but cause more damage with their blows. However, pretty much every boxer o has the potential in their body to generate the punching power required to KO their opponents that are of a similar size (in weight).

Foreman said it best: "It takes years to learn how to finish an opponent once you have him hurt".

Power is a nice cherry on top. Speed on the other hand excels your lvl by improving every facet of your game. Great speed is like boxing with cheats enabled, the greatest boxers were usually speed demons, its a huge advantage. With power there will always be guys who you cant ko because they are too tough or guys that you cant get to (another thing speed helps with) without sacrificing your power unless you want to lose a decision, and its not nearly as important as a solid workrate, defense and in general well rounded elite skills.