Who Has the Better Body of Work, Andre Ward or James Toney?

Yeah right. Jirov has zero wins over ranked opponents. Kovalev has beaten Cleverly, Pascal, Hopkins and arguably beat Ward. All ranked top 5. So you absolutely cannot say the same for Kovalev. James Toney is a drug cheat so I think that argument is poor. Yeah right. Jirov has zero wins over ranked opponents. Jirov has zero wins over ranked opponents. The fact that Jirov was a WORLD CRUISERWEIGHT CHAMPION disproves that statement of yours. Kovalev has beaten Cleverly, Pascal, Hopkins and arguably beat Ward. All ranked top 5. True and I agree about Sergey Kovalev beating top ranked opposition AT light heavyweight. So you absolutely cannot say the same for Kovalev. The similar thing between Kovalev and Jirov is that they were / are both one of the best in their divisions, which is a fact! However, defeating one of the best cruiserweights in the world is more impressive than beating one of the best light heavyweights in the world as cruiserweights are naturally much bigger, thus riskier and more challenging as opponents. Even more so as someone James Toney) who started off at middleweight. James Toney is a drug cheat so I think that argument is poor. By 'cheating', I was referring to cheating inside the ring instead of what the boxers consume outside of it. Personally, I really could care less as to whether boxers are consuming drugs or not in the modern day / era. Simply because drug tests are extremely inconsistent in addition to the fact that the modern era is getting more and more technologically advanced. Thus, if everyone is allowed to take drugs in the modern technologically advanced era, there really shouldn't be any problem. Furthermore, Andre Ward wasn't enrolled with VADA the same way Sergey Kovalev was and Ward also displayed symptoms of performance enhancing drugs such as random acne appearing in his back. So Andre Ward's win over Kovalev is also very suspect and questionable.

Are we counting to the balls?

Not convinced at all. I don't view fighters of the old as invincible, even RJJ got put on his ass by Lou Del Valle. If this is Kovalev, Beterbiev, Bivol, even Barrera landing this punch RJJ is asleep shaking on the canvas https://media.giphy.com/media/HBtEdPZampxL2/giphy.gif And regardless, he struggled badly with all of those. Johnson beat him IMO. McCallum drew with him and IMO won the rematch And Nunn schooled him for 11 rounds until he forced the stoppage. Props for that but he was made to look completely foolish. Ward's wins are much more dominant and decisive.

I don't think anyone has had a better SMW-LHW run than Ward. That includes RJJ(Who's still greater), B-Hop (Who's still greater), Calzaghe, and James Toney.

I think for body work it's Ward. Ward's ring IQ is better and integrates it into his gameplan more. Overall it's evenish. Hard to pick between the two of them. As of right now Tony has fought more dangerous opposition but he took losses where his preparation wasn't on point as it should've been.

Here is a summary of their top wins: Ward: Sergey Kovalev x 2 Carl Froch Mikkel Kessler Chad Dawson Arthur Abraham Sako Bika Sullivan Barrera Unified champion at 168 and 175. Toney: Michael Nunn Reggie Johnson Mike McCallum x 2 Iran Barkley Vassily Jirov Merqui Sosa Evander Holyfield Losses to Roy Jones Jr.. Montell Griffin x 2, Drake Thadzi and numerous other losses past his prime at heavyweight. Won titles at middleweight and super middleweight Popped for roids twice i think. I'm Voting Ward

Johnson, McCallum, Nunn all way better than anyone Ward fought. Not convinced at all. I don't view fighters of the old as invincible, even RJJ got put on his ass by Lou Del Valle. If this is Kovalev, Beterbiev, Bivol, even Barrera landing this punch RJJ is asleep shaking on the canvas https://media.giphy.com/media/HBtEdPZampxL2/giphy.gif

29 fights in JT admittedly lost to Dave Tiberi, that would never happen to SOG, NEVER. 29 fights in Ward already had victories over Kessler, Froch, Abraham, Dawson, Barrera etc. It cannot be ignored how at age 25 he had already dominated Joe Calzaghe's best career win, who many consider an ATG. They tried rushing him back against Kovalev, that's the only reason the 1st fight was so close. The rematch he stopped him. Johnson, McCallum, Nunn all way better than anyone Ward fought.

Toney has 10 losses in 90 fights. Ray Robinson had 19 losses in 200 fights. Losses don't tell the whole story. Ward never lost, but he never fought anyone on the level of a prime Roy Jones either. When you look at who Toney beat, they are leaps and bounds above anyone Ward ever beat. 29 fights in JT admittedly lost to Dave Tiberi, that would never happen to SOG, NEVER. 29 fights in Ward already had victories over Kessler, Froch, Abraham, Dawson, Barrera etc. It cannot be ignored how at age 25 he had already dominated Joe Calzaghe's best career win, who many consider an ATG. They tried rushing him back against Kovalev, that's the only reason the 1st fight was so close. The rematch he stopped him.

Toney the ****1n glorified waist rotator? :lol1: Big fat bum who is as inconsistent as my bowel movements.

Actually, Vassily Jirov is at a similar caliber / level as Sergey Kovalev. Jirov at the time was one of the best cruiserweights and the cruiserweight world champion in the same way Kovalev was recently one of the best light heavyweights and a light heavyweight world champion. The same argument can be made for Kovalev too. I really can't see any opponent Kovalev has beaten that is at all better than Jirov's best opponents. Likewise, in my opinion Andre Ward lost the first fight against Sergey Kovalev and was gifted a controversial stoppage in the rematch. At the very least, James Toney never had to cheat anywhere near as much as Andre Ward, even against the best possible opposition. Yeah right. Jirov has zero wins over ranked opponents. Kovalev has beaten Cleverly, Pascal, Hopkins and arguably beat Ward. All ranked top 5. So you absolutely cannot say the same for Kovalev. James Toney is a drug cheat so I think that argument is poor.

Never enough for you, Dan. :D I could say Toney was the lowest piece of shyt on earth but he had good taste in cars and you'd deny my point about the cars. :lol1: (just playin, BTW) :lol1: :lol1: I just don't see it. Toney in his prime got hit more by Dave Tiberi than Ward has in basically his whole career. Roy Jones, Floyd, Whitaker, Ali, that's some "other level sh*t" Toney is some "it's ok" sh*t. IMO.

Other level sh*t how? Ward get's hit less than Toney. Never enough for you, Dan. :D I could say Toney was the lowest piece of shyt on earth but he had good taste in cars and you'd deny my point about the cars. :lol1: (just playin, BTW)

Bullsh*t. Jirov is no where near as good as Kovalev and literally has no good wins. Yes McCallum is better than anyone Ward has beat but IMO mcCallum never lost to Toney except for when he was shot in the 3rd fight. Jirov is no where near as good as Kovalev Actually, Vassily Jirov is at a similar caliber / level as Sergey Kovalev. Jirov at the time was one of the best cruiserweights and the cruiserweight world champion in the same way Kovalev was recently one of the best light heavyweights and a light heavyweight world champion. and literally has no good wins. The same argument can be made for Kovalev too. I really can't see any opponent Kovalev has beaten that is at all better than Jirov's best opponents. but IMO mcCallum never lost to Toney except for when he was shot in the 3rd fight. Likewise, in my opinion Andre Ward lost the first fight against Sergey Kovalev and was gifted a controversial stoppage in the rematch. At the very least, James Toney never had to cheat anywhere near as much as Andre Ward, even against the best possible opposition.

I just can't look past that shocking Kovalev TKO last Saturday so I give it to Ward. Toney is good but doesn't have a standout win that definitively puts his resume above Ward's. Holyfield is a big name and Toney moved up, but he was washed up by then.

I've got a ton of respect for Toney and what he did, he perhaps did better than anyone else. But, I don't think his actual wins are as strong as Ward's. Somehow, we forget how highly regarded Kessler, Froch, Dawson, and now even Kovalev were when he faced them. It's very easy to dismiss these guys after Dre picks them apart. If we're talking about pure slickness, Toney was on some other-level shyt. Ward doesn't have those reflexes. However, he's a more versatile and smarter fighter all-around. Other level sh*t how? Ward get's hit less than Toney.

I've got a ton of respect for Toney and what he did, he perhaps did better than anyone else. But, I don't think his actual wins are as strong as Ward's. Somehow, we forget how highly regarded Kessler, Froch, Dawson, and now even Kovalev were when he faced them. It's very easy to dismiss these guys after Dre picks them apart. If we're talking about pure slickness, Toney was on some other-level shyt. Ward doesn't have those reflexes. However, he's a more versatile and smarter fighter all-around.

toney, by a distance. ward clinched kessler 80 or so times and headbutted him. he beat froch by 1 round. and the two kovalev wins were both extremely controversial. And are bika and barrera meant to be impressive wins or something? Toney lost to worse fighters than Bika and Barrera.

middleweight and cruiserweight were 30 lbs apart. ward has only gone up seven lbs. while i agreet that kovalev is a better p4p figher than jirov, and was actually on a lot of p4p lists, the guy you're replying to is referring not only to the quality of fighter, but the weight and the value that it gives the win. and as for your opinion regarding the fights with mccallum, one could easily argue that ward has a loss to kovalev on his record. would andre ward be competive with a mediocre crop of HW? i doubt it, personally. he doesn't have the power to climb weight like toney did. i think toney's not only a more accomplished fighter, but a much more accomplished one. he boxed for 2+ decades and has done much, much more than ward has in this sport. ward is youngish and pretty fresh from the layoffs, so he's got time, but i can't see how one would possibly argue that he's done more in boxing than toney, who went all the way up to HW from a lower weight class than the one in which ward made himself a star. I agree Ward would fail at HW just as Toney did. His "run" there is not good so I don't know why it's always brought up. That's what I meant regarding Kovalev. Not sure how a H2H match would go because Kovalev hasn't fought there but all i'm saying is is Kovalev is better than Jirov. I said except Kovalev for Ward.

In terms of accomplishments? Wards wins over Froch, Kovalev, and Dawson seal it for me. Hell, even Kessler was considered the best SMW and favorite to win the Super Six at the time, and he dominated him in only his 20th fight.